James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Nov 14, 2018 20:48:20 GMT
(287)
January 1985: China
Through the western reaches of China, the expansive Sinkiang region, Soviet military control was total. The province which bordered Mongolia and Soviet Central Asia had been overrun by the Soviet Thirty–Second Army and their pacification efforts were complete. The latter had taken some time to finish but after all the blood was spilt and all of the destruction caused, no longer would any organised armed resistance come from either the ethnic Uighurs nor the Han Chinese after so many of them were dead and the rest having witnessed this occur. Maybe in the future, in the coming months, the flame of resistance might be relit, but not for now. The Thirty–Second Army was moving on though, leaving Sinkiang behind. They had been joined by the wartime-raised Forty–First Army and re-tasked away from occupation duties for further offensive missions. Those would take place to the south. Moscow wanted the two field armies to go into Tibet. Lhasa and the Indian frontier of the Himalayas were the ultimate objectives for this offensive. To say the distances and the challenge of going that far were gargantuan would be a terrific understatement. There they were being sent though by those who made the decisions and wouldn’t have to go with them.
Other Soviet armies were now in China too. Soviet forces already formed and newly-raised field armies completed their deployment into China through January. Damage from the nuclear strikes inside China, Mongolia and the Soviet Union delayed the planned passage of them but they were arriving in force. Many of these men were conscripts doing their state-mandated military service yet there were large numbers of reservists among the men from this second-wave of Soviet troops arriving in China. Without an official country-wide announcement, reservists from across the Soviet Union on a wider scale than seen before had been called up for service during November, spent December in training and moved across Eurasia in January to reach the North China Plain south of Beijing. Not every possible reservist that the Soviets would call upon had returned to uniform, but the majority of those who did were now in China rather than sent elsewhere to fight the other wars their nation was fighting. An economic reaction to the missing hundreds of thousands of soldiers had yet to come within the Soviet Union when so many men went off to war though that would be certain if they were away from home for long. Moscow didn’t plan for them to be gone for a significant amount of time.
The arriving troops were preparing to begin advancing alongside forces already inside China starting next month. The weather would improve – not be brilliant but better than it was now – and the Soviets would march on the Yangtze River and beyond. The war would afterwards thus come to a close when the Chinese finally saw sense and gave in. It was all so simple, all believed to be a solution to the China War. Of course, before then it had been attacking China from afar which would bend China to the Soviet Union’s will, then it was invading Manchuria before it was taking Beijing and then afterwards going over the Yellow River. No, this time, this was supposed to work. An offensive to get to the Yangtze (as well as the march into Tibet) was to finally get Moscow the result it desired.
At a Defence Council meeting just before the end of the month, called when the Western Europeans formed their military alliance and put troops into Sweden, a voice of opposition was raised to the wisdom of this. It came from Gromyko. The Soviet Foreign Minister spoke carefully but plainly. China wasn't going to fold, Hu wasn’t going to give in. No one supported him openly. Vorotnikov listened but assured him and the others that that wouldn’t occur. Of course the Chinese would give in. Of course they would.
Flying from Andersen AFB on Guam, B-52s based there had been busy flying missions over the Asian mainland since the beginning of the war. They were assigned a semi-strategic role in this though at the same time had to remain prepared to undertake nuclear strikes as well. The 43rd Bomb Wing had been joined by the 319th Bomb Wing in attacking both on the Korean Peninsula and Vietnam too. North Korea had been hit with cruise missiles and the B-52s had conducted bomb-runs south of the DMZ too, each time staging through Okinawa. The now-finished Vietnam missions – with that country playing no more role in this war along with Soviet forces there – had been undertaken with cruise missiles against land targets and the B-52s firing massed waves of Harpoon anti-ship missiles as well when staging through the Philippines: no B-52s had been directly above Vietnam because memories of a previous conflict were still fresh. The Thirteenth US Air Force had coordinated these missions and F-4s flying from Clark AFB near Manila had been involved in earlier actions offshore from Vietnam before half of the 3rd Tactical Fighter Wing had been reassigned to Korea. In January, the Thirteenth Air Force moved the last of those tactical aircraft out of the Philippines and to Okinawa. The B-52s were now no longer going to be making strikes to support the Second Korean War and instead would join the transferred F-4s – plus F-15 fighters already there – in focusing solely on China. US air power was being directed to intervene in the China War.
Soviet forces in Shandong received the first of this attention. Three airbases which they were using plus the port of Qingdao (better known in the West as Tsingtao) were hit with missile strikes. The F-4s came in the next day, going overland, and also went for Qingdao as well where they attacked the sheltered port area as a follow-up to the B-52 strikes. There was a lot of shipping gathered there in the form of Chinese vessels that the Soviets had assembled. The movement of troops into Shandong pointed to an effort to use the ships to transport those troops somewhere. These were civilian vessels and not specialised amphibious assault ships but that was what it looked like. Rockets, bombs and guns were used to attack them. Soviet interference came. Their fighters were engaged by F-15s but some broke low to go after the F-4s. Into the skies as well came SAMs and anti-aircraft fire. Where the B-52s hadn’t been risked, these smaller aircraft had been and they were hit when over China. Five aircraft were lost that morning to Soviet MiGs and SAMs during the first tactical strikes, a large number which if repeated in another strike was wholly unsustainable. US intelligence scrambled to get images of the area afterwards to see what they had missed in terms of air defences the first time. Only now did they spot all of those SAM batteries, only after the commitment of a full squadron of tactical strike aircraft. Uncomfortable reminders of air losses with another past war on the Asian mainland came. A temporary block was put on more strikes like this though both the B-52s firing cruise missiles and F-15s on offshore fighter missions – working with the US Navy – would continue for now. Those voices who had warned that this would happen, the prophets of doom on the United States playing an active role in the China War, had had their warnings confirmed. Large portions of the United States itself remained occupied by foreign forces and there was a war raging on the Korean Peninsula: getting involved in China couldn’t and shouldn’t be done.
Taiwan continued to be another participant in the China War. Its involvement was undeclared officially yet there was no doubt that it was happening. Everyone could see it. The Chinese government in Nanchang, the Americans and the Soviets were all aware. Taiwan wasn’t going to begin a campaign to ‘retake the mainland’ but it was stealing scraps from the table. Offshore islands which China had once control of near to ones near to others held by Taiwan were taken unopposed by Taiwanese forces after the Chinese left them. The biggest of those, the huge island of Hainan, remained in Chinese hands yet if the Taiwanese had their way, it would soon be theirs too. The contested Parcel Islands down in the South China Sea – also claimed by Vietnam –came under Taiwanese control. Taiwanese naval patrols were underway at the top of the South China Sea as well, in the waters off the British and Portuguese colonial possessions of Hong Kong and Macau respectively. They engaged ‘pirates’: real ones but also Chinese naval ships whose crews had abandoned their country and were fighting for themselves. Taiwan then made itself a nuclear power.
Everything else it was doing now had a nod-and-wink approval from the United States, with the Chinese screaming of American betrayal, but not this. In the spate of a few months, the Americans had gone from threatening Taiwan to supporting its actions. This was different though: the United States would have put a stop to what occurred at sea if they knew. In secret, Taiwanese special forces took over a ship in one of their supposed anti-pirate operations. It had come from Ningbo with a destination being Shantou and loaded with five nuclear weapons, all to be hidden down in southern China. Overland and air routes were impossible and it was thought that a safer transit would be made by sea especially if the ship in question acted innocuously. A Taiwanese spy alerted his handlers though and it was assaulted by well-trained and capable men who removed the weapons – two artillery shells and three free-fall bombs – before scuttling that ship with the dead crew aboard. It was hoped that Nanchang would never find out exactly what happened, thinking that the ship had been attacked and sunk. Taiwan wanted those nuclear weapons for future purposes. The last thing they would ever want to do would be to use them against mainland China to respond to a strike on Taiwan. The Taiwanese couldn’t imagine that ever happening, it was unthinkable.
Despite what the Taiwanese did offshore in dealing with ships, some of them contained refugees heading for Hong Kong and Macau, there was still a flood of the needy towards each. The Portuguese were overwhelmed. They lost control of law and order in their territory. The city was hit by violence, looting and fire. Thousands of the people who called the colony home, as well as thousands more who had fled here for their own safety, lost their lives. Half the world away, Lisbon could do nothing to stop this. Such a thing wasn’t going to be allowed to happen in Hong Kong. The colonial authorities had begged London for assistance yet been sent none. They were told to make do with what they had and stop the masses of refugees from entering Hong Kong illegally where their presence would ‘be a threat to public order’. There were tens of thousands of refugees who’d come overland and by boats already. These were causing all of the problems feared already. In addition, there was at least two hundred and fifty thousand more Chinese outside of Hong Kong, in the immediate vicinity and trying to get inside. Hong Kong was the promised land where there was no war, no hunger, no disease and safety for them & their families.
The 26th Gurkha Brigade was responsible for the defence of Hong Kong. There were two battalions of Gurkhas, a battalion from the Royal Green Jackets and the men of the Royal Hong Kong Regiment. A division or a corps, not a brigade, was really needed for this task. The British only had these men though and it was they who had to stop the flow of people. They did the very best that they could. Blockages were made to stop people entering Hong Kong and physical lines of troops deployed. Gaps appeared everywhere though. Desperate people will always get through. The only way that the British could have stopped the flow of people properly would be to shoot them. Those who made it to Hong Kong couldn’t be thrown back out – how could that be realistically done? – and more followed them. London demanded that the flow of people be stopped. It couldn’t. Things slowly started to fall apart in Hong Kong. It wasn’t fast like it had been in Macau yet was still occurring. Violence took place daily and there was mass looting. Those refugees who behaved, the overwhelming majority of them who didn’t lash out, were a massive strain on the colony in terms of food, shelter and medical attention. Help us, Hong Kong demanded. We can’t, London replied. To those looking at this with neutral and objective eyes, who could see where this was going, Hong Kong was eventually going to end up the way of Macau.
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Post by lukedalton on Nov 14, 2018 22:05:52 GMT
So the plan is, more or less, a last final big offensive in China...so that troops (and more importantly equipment) can be quickly diverted in Western Europe to scare into submission or more probably attack the Maastrich block and back to the workforce before the consequences become too massive?
Well, what can go wrong? Isn't the definition of foolishness doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result?
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,867
Likes: 13,252
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Post by stevep on Nov 15, 2018 1:11:44 GMT
(287)January 1985: China Through the western reaches of China, the expansive Sinkiang region, Soviet military control was total. The province which bordered Mongolia and Soviet Central Asia had been overrun by the Soviet Thirty–Second Army and their pacification efforts were complete. The latter had taken some time to finish but after all the blood was spilt and all of the destruction caused, no longer would any organised armed resistance come from either the ethnic Uighurs nor the Han Chinese after so many of them were dead and the rest having witnessed this occur. Maybe in the future, in the coming months, the flame of resistance might be relit, but not for now. The Thirty–Second Army was moving on though, leaving Sinkiang behind. They had been joined by the wartime-raised Forty–First Army and re-tasked away from occupation duties for further offensive missions. Those would take place to the south. Moscow wanted the two field armies to go into Tibet. Lhasa and the Indian frontier of the Himalayas were the ultimate objectives for this offensive. To say the distances and the challenge of going that far were gargantuan would be a terrific understatement. There they were being sent though by those who made the decisions and wouldn’t have to go with them. Other Soviet armies were now in China too. Soviet forces already formed and newly-raised field armies completed their deployment into China through January. Damage from the nuclear strikes inside China, Mongolia and the Soviet Union delayed the planned passage of them but they were arriving in force. Many of these men were conscripts doing their state-mandated military service yet there were large numbers of reservists among the men from this second-wave of Soviet troops arriving in China. Without an official country-wide announcement, reservists from across the Soviet Union on a wider scale than seen before had been called up for service during November, spent December in training and moved across Eurasia in January to reach the North China Plain south of Beijing. Not every possible reservist that the Soviets would call upon had returned to uniform, but the majority of those who did were now in China rather than sent elsewhere to fight the other wars their nation was fighting. An economic reaction to the missing hundreds of thousands of soldiers had yet to come within the Soviet Union when so many men went off to war though that would be certain if they were away from home for long. Moscow didn’t plan for them to be gone for a significant amount of time. The arriving troops were preparing to begin advancing alongside forces already inside China starting next month. The weather would improve – not be brilliant but better than it was now – and the Soviets would march on the Yangtze River and beyond. The war would afterwards thus come to a close when the Chinese finally saw sense and gave in. It was all so simple, all believed to be a solution to the China War. Of course, before then it had been attacking China from afar which would bend China to the Soviet Union’s will, then it was invading Manchuria before it was taking Beijing and then afterwards going over the Yellow River. No, this time, this was supposed to work. An offensive to get to the Yangtze (as well as the march into Tibet) was to finally get Moscow the result it desired. At a Defence Council meeting just before the end of the month, called when the Western Europeans formed their military alliance and put troops into Sweden, a voice of opposition was raised to the wisdom of this. It came from Gromyko. The Soviet Foreign Minister spoke carefully but plainly. China was going to fold, Hu wasn’t going to give in. No one supported him openly. Vorotnikov listened but assured him and the others that that wouldn’t occur. Of course the Chinese would give in. Of course they would. Flying from Andersen AFB on Guam, B-52s based there had been busy flying missions over the Asian mainland since the beginning of the war. They were assigned a semi-strategic role in this though at the same time had to remain prepared to undertake nuclear strikes as well. The 43rd Bomb Wing had been joined by the 319th Bomb Wing in attacking both on the Korean Peninsula and Vietnam too. North Korea had been hit with cruise missiles and the B-52s had conducted bomb-runs south of the DMZ too, each time staging through Okinawa. The now-finished Vietnam missions – with that country playing no more role in this war along with Soviet forces there – had been undertaken with cruise missiles against land targets and the B-52s firing massed waves of Harpoon anti-ship missiles as well when staging through the Philippines: no B-52s had been directly above Vietnam because memories of a previous conflict were still fresh. The Thirteenth US Air Force had coordinated these missions and F-4s flying from Clark AFB near Manila had been involved in earlier actions offshore from Vietnam before half of the 3rd Tactical Fighter Wing had been reassigned to Korea. In January, the Thirteenth Air Force moved the last of those tactical aircraft out of the Philippines and to Okinawa. The B-52s were now no longer going to be making strikes to support the Second Korean War and instead would join the transferred F-4s – plus F-15 fighters already there – in focusing solely on China. US air power was being directed to intervene in the China War. Soviet forces in Shandong received the first of this attention. Three airbases which they were using plus the port of Qingdao (better known in the West as Tsingtao) were hit with missile strikes. The F-4s came in the next day, going overland, and also went for Qingdao as well where they attacked the sheltered port area as a follow-up to the B-52 strikes. There was a lot of shipping gathered there in the form of Chinese vessels that the Soviets had assembled. The movement of troops into Shandong pointed to an effort to use the ships to transport those troops somewhere. These were civilian vessels and not specialised amphibious assault ships but that was what it looked like. Rockets, bombs and guns were used to attack them. Soviet interference came. Their fighters were engaged by F-15s but some broke low to go after the F-4s. Into the skies as well came SAMs and anti-aircraft fire. Where the B-52s hadn’t been risked, these smaller aircraft had been and they were hit when over China. Five aircraft were lost that morning to Soviet MiGs and SAMs during the first tactical strikes, a large number which if repeated in another strike was wholly unsustainable. US intelligence scrambled to get images of the area afterwards to see what they had missed in terms of air defences the first time. Only now did they spot all of those SAM batteries, only after the commitment of a full squadron of tactical strike aircraft. Uncomfortable reminders of air losses with another past war on the Asian mainland came. A temporary block was put on more strikes like this though both the B-52s firing cruise missiles and F-15s on offshore fighter missions – working with the US Navy – would continue for now. Those voices who had warned that this would happen, the prophets of doom on the United States playing an active role in the China War, had had their warnings confirmed. Large portions of the United States itself remained occupied by foreign forces and there was a war raging on the Korean Peninsula: getting involved in China couldn’t and shouldn’t be done. Taiwan continued to be another participant in the China War. Its involvement was undeclared officially yet there was no doubt that it was happening. Everyone could see it. The Chinese government in Nanchang, the Americans and the Soviets were all aware. Taiwan wasn’t going to begin a campaign to ‘retake the mainland’ but it was stealing scraps from the table. Offshore islands which China had once control of near to ones near to others held by Taiwan were taken unopposed by Taiwanese forces after the Chinese left them. The biggest of those, the huge island of Hainan, remained in Chinese hands yet if the Taiwanese had their way, it would soon be theirs too. The contested Parcel Islands down in the South China Sea – also claimed by Vietnam –came under Taiwanese control. Taiwanese naval patrols were underway at the top of the South China Sea as well, in the waters off the British and Portuguese colonial possessions of Hong Kong and Macau respectively. They engaged ‘pirates’: real ones but also Chinese naval ships whose crews had abandoned their country and were fighting for themselves. Taiwan then made itself a nuclear power. Everything else it was doing now had a nod-and-wink approval from the United States, with the Chinese screaming of American betrayal, but not this. In the spate of a few months, the Americans had gone from threatening Taiwan to supporting its actions. This was different though: the United States would have put a stop to what occurred at sea if they knew. In secret, Taiwanese special forces took over a ship in one of their supposed anti-pirate operations. It had come from Ningbo with a destination being Shantou and loaded with five nuclear weapons, all to be hidden down in southern China. Overland and air routes were impossible and it was thought that a safer transit would be made by sea especially if the ship in question acted innocuously. A Taiwanese spy alerted his handlers though and it was assaulted by well-trained and capable men who removed the weapons – two artillery shells and three free-fall bombs – before scuttling that ship with the dead crew aboard. It was hoped that Nanchang would never find out exactly what happened, thinking that the ship had been attacked and sunk. Taiwan wanted those nuclear weapons for future purposes. The last thing they would ever want to do would be to use them against mainland China to respond to a strike on Taiwan. The Taiwanese couldn’t imagine that ever happening, it was unthinkable. Despite what the Taiwanese did offshore in dealing with ships, some of them contained refugees heading for Hong Kong and Macau, there was still a flood of the needy towards each. The Portuguese were overwhelmed. They lost control of law and order in their territory. The city was hit by violence, looting and fire. Thousands of the people who called the colony home, as well as thousands more who had fled here for their own safety, lost their lives. Half the world away, Lisbon could do nothing to stop this. Such a thing wasn’t going to be allowed to happen in Hong Kong. The colonial authorities had begged London for assistance yet been sent none. They were told to make do with what they had and stop the masses of refugees from entering Hong Kong illegally where their presence would ‘be a threat to public order’. There were tens of thousands of refugees who’d come overland and by boats already. These were causing all of the problems feared already. In addition, there was at least two hundred and fifty thousand more Chinese outside of Hong Kong, in the immediate vicinity and trying to get inside. Hong Kong was the promised land where there was no war, no hunger, no disease and safety for them & their families. The 26th Gurkha Brigade was responsible for the defence of Hong Kong. There were two battalions of Gurkhas, a battalion from the Royal Green Jackets and the men of the Royal Hong Kong Regiment. A division or a corps, not a brigade, was really needed for this task. The British only had these men though and it was they who had to stop the flow of people. They did the very best that they could. Blockages were made to stop people entering Hong Kong and physical lines of troops deployed. Gaps appeared everywhere though. Desperate people will always get through. The only way that the British could have stopped the flow of people properly would be to shoot them. Those who made it to Hong Kong couldn’t be thrown back out – how could that be realistically done? – and more followed them. London demanded that the flow of people be stopped. It couldn’t. Things slowly started to fall apart in Hong Kong. It wasn’t fast like it had been in Macau yet was still occurring. Violence took place daily and there was mass looting. Those refugees who behaved, the overwhelming majority of them who didn’t lash out, were a massive strain on the colony in terms of food, shelter and medical attention. Help us, Hong Kong demanded. We can’t, London replied. To those looking at this with neutral and objective eyes, who could see where this was going, Hong Kong was eventually going to end up the way of Macau.
I'm beginning to wonder if Vorotnikov's obsessive attacks in China is an even bigger mistake than the initial invasion of the US be his predecessors, especially given the clear potential threat from the EDA. Sounds like a huge amount of forces and reserves are being moblised for the quagmire that will be China. I wonder if Gromyko's health will be affected by showing he has an active brain-cell? Vorotnikov is reaching 45 Hitler levels of delusion. Which could be potentially very dangerous for everybody with so many nukes under his control. Trying to invade Tibet is especially stupid as the 2 armies are going to face huge problems, both with logistics and with trying to operate on the Tibetan plateau, especially in winter! If had any sense he would have realised the Soviets have already effectively achieved their purpose in China as the country has ceased to be any sort of threat other than by swallowing units thrown into it.
Also a bit surprised about the US committing all that air power to supporting China when it could be very useful at home, or even supporting allies in Europe. Some of that stuff might have really inflicted some crushing defeats on the recent Soviet naval pushes, rather than the bloody attritional slogs that have occurred.
If Vorotnikov has stripped the Soviets so bare I can see even the weaker EDA forces in Europe holding and quite possibly forcing the WP forces back after initial losses. Especially since even if he has the sense to admit he's been wrong its a bloody long way trying to retrieve forces from any part of China. This does further reinforce my argument that sending those 4 British Arm divs to the continent to support the EDA would be a poor decision.
On Taiwan it could be risky making a bid for Hainan and its doubtful if they could hold it if any CCP state survives. With the nukes the US won't be happy, although they might be glad their outside CCP hands. I remember reading that after they lost US support in the early 70's Taiwan tried starting a secret nuclear programme for a deterrent force but once the US found out about it they put a hell of a lot of pressure on them to drop it. [Possibly however also a lot of conventional military support in compensation.]
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
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Post by James G on Nov 15, 2018 20:20:34 GMT
So the plan is, more or less, a last final big offensive in China...so that troops (and more importantly equipment) can be quickly diverted in Western Europe to scare into submission or more probably attack the Maastrich block and back to the workforce before the consequences become too massive? Well, what can go wrong? Isn't the definition of foolishness doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result? That is not YET 'the plan'. But, it is the ongoing thinking. Notice the spoken division in the Politburo though. That is what is important. With regards to China, the fail, repeat, fail, repeat, fail is what has been going on.
I'm beginning to wonder if Vorotnikov's obsessive attacks in China is an even bigger mistake than the initial invasion of the US be his predecessors, especially given the clear potential threat from the EDA. Sounds like a huge amount of forces and reserves are being moblised for the quagmire that will be China. I wonder if Gromyko's health will be affected by showing he has an active brain-cell? Vorotnikov is reaching 45 Hitler levels of delusion. Which could be potentially very dangerous for everybody with so many nukes under his control. Trying to invade Tibet is especially stupid as the 2 armies are going to face huge problems, both with logistics and with trying to operate on the Tibetan plateau, especially in winter! If had any sense he would have realised the Soviets have already effectively achieved their purpose in China as the country has ceased to be any sort of threat other than by swallowing units thrown into it.
Also a bit surprised about the US committing all that air power to supporting China when it could be very useful at home, or even supporting allies in Europe. Some of that stuff might have really inflicted some crushing defeats on the recent Soviet naval pushes, rather than the bloody attritional slogs that have occurred.
If Vorotnikov has stripped the Soviets so bare I can see even the weaker EDA forces in Europe holding and quite possibly forcing the WP forces back after initial losses. Especially since even if he has the sense to admit he's been wrong its a bloody long way trying to retrieve forces from any part of China. This does further reinforce my argument that sending those 4 British Arm divs to the continent to support the EDA would be a poor decision.
On Taiwan it could be risky making a bid for Hainan and its doubtful if they could hold it if any CCP state survives. With the nukes the US won't be happy, although they might be glad their outside CCP hands. I remember reading that after they lost US support in the early 70's Taiwan tried starting a secret nuclear programme for a deterrent force but once the US found out about it they put a hell of a lot of pressure on them to drop it. [Possibly however also a lot of conventional military support in compensation.]
You would be correct. The manpower commitment is huge and ongoing: North American deployments pale in comparison. Ah, the Gromyko thing will become a growing issue. The US air strikes were in an area opposite South Korea, western Japan and Okinawa. That was the reason. They failed too. Lesson hopefully learnt. Taiwan is supplying the US with munitions now, 'dumb' weapons built in busy factories, and that saw the change in view as long as Tawian doesn't support the USSR in sinking China. Taiwan stealing five tac nukes, even that tiny number, will enrage the US went they find out though Taiwan is now holding more cards (supplying arms) than they did before. I'm sure with stolen 'live' weapons, any Taiwanese effort to restart their own programme, encouraged by what has occurred in China, will get a shot in the arm. |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
Likes: 8,833
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Post by James G on Nov 15, 2018 20:21:10 GMT
(288)
January 1985: The Korean Peninsula
Allied forces in South Korea once again cut the connections from invading forces south of the Han to their positions north of that river. From out of the Seoul Pocket, fighting a slow-moving and brutal battle, American and South Korean troops succeeded in cutting off North Korean and Soviet troops out ahead. They were then reinforced and the area of liberated territory widened when Commonwealth troops – the bashed-about Australians along with a recent increase in numbers of Malaysians – joined in. The Australians and Malaysians ended up with forward positions facing northwards and to the east; positioned southwards were the American and South Korean. These fighting men were tired and due for a break after doing what they had but orders came to push onwards, going even further south and retaking further occupied soil as well. They came up against North Korean troops whose positions looked formidable yet were brittle. First the 3rd Marine Division and then the South Korean 9th Infantry Division (the famous White Horse) overcame enemy resistance as they struck and broke through significantly. Their pace picked up as they advanced and all North Koreans before them broke. There came less and less return fire and a mass of surrendering prisoners. Two more South Korean divisions along with an armoured brigade, joined by the US Army’s 25th Infantry Division, entered the fight and broadened the frontage. Huge areas of previously-occupied land was retaken. Nowhere could the North Koreans hold on and they were barely even fighting any more. Away to the north, the other Allied troops facing further North Koreans dug in between the Han and the DMZ were facing strong and spirited opposition, but there was none of that to the south. Only when the Allied attack reached the Soviets and their two-division corps did the wildly-successful offensive come to a halt when they came into contact with those opponents. Once stopped, the Allies now had to deal with the staggering number of prisoners which they took in sixteen days of going forward. There were nearly one hundred and eighty thousand of them, the majority of whom needed urgent medical care too. The Korean People’s Army (KPA) had just fallen apart so completely and rapidly. Why?
It was a combination of many factors. Firstly, the KPA had been fighting south of the DMZ since mid-September and there had been no let-up at all. Conditions for the men enforced by officers and political commissars were almost barbaric. These men ate scraps, suffered ridiculously harsh punishments for the smallest things and were generally in sorry state. Victories which they won brought them nothing but another fight to have straight afterwards. Morale was non-existent. That would have long ago killed any other army but not the KPA due to the men who were frightened of their own regime, for themselves but also their families back home, more than any enemy they might face. The cessation of ammunition supplies was another key factor which broke the North Koreans. The first time that there had been a cutting of connections running back north, the interruption had been short and supplies already forward were used before the Soviets arrived to tear through Allied lines. Following behind their tanks came trucks laden with bullets and shells for the KPA. This second time that the Allies cut them off was worse than the first though and occurred when ammunition levels were at rock bottom. Instructions came that those cut-off troops were to fight with their bare hands if necessary and then seize from overcome enemies their weapons and ammunition. This was utterly stupid and wholly impossible. The KPA ran out of bullets and thus couldn’t return fire against the attacking Allies. Those who sent the orders for the men to fight with their bare hands weren’t the ones who would have to run into machine gun fire without having any covering support, were they? Thirdly, the final factor in the sudden KPA collapse was a rumour. It started within the North Korean lines themselves, one stamped hard upon by political officers with executions made. The rumour reached South Korean ears though and the ANSP (the successor to the Korean CIA; who’d long held a larger role than the now-defunct American CIA when it came to South Korean military affairs) decided to make use of it. They helped respread the story that Kim Il-sung was dead, killed at American hands. This meant that the certainly that the fighting men had that the regime would punish them for any surrender and also seek revenge upon their families too was gone. Kim was supposedly dead and back home there would be no deadly retribution for any failure to continue fighting when they couldn’t anyway.
It was a perfect storm. What began as a small Allied offensive became that rout of the KPA. There were still other groups of North Koreans south of the Han, already in isolated groups and not part of the collapsed force but they were ultimately doomed as well. The Soviets remained also yet they too were well and truly cut off. Their own ammunition was soon to run out but before then fuel, the lack of to be exact, looked likely to be the cause of their downfall. The KPA had long become a majority dismounted force but the Soviet Sixty–Eighth Army Corps had all of their tanks, their infantry fighting vehicles and self-propelled guns. They needed fuel or were fast going to be static pillboxes ready to be picked off by accurate fire. What really would have helped speed up the process of destroying both the last of the North Koreans and the Soviets too would have been significant air attacks. Those B-52s re-tasked from missions above the Korean Peninsula to the air strikes made against China would have been perfect for this. Combined Forces Korea had had no say over that decision and there was a mood of (an unsaid) ‘I told you so’ with that. They still missed those bombers though. Tactical air strikes just couldn’t make up for the tonnage that waves of bombers would bring to play. That B-52s were elsewhere though and there was still a war to fight. Reaching the Soviets was all that the Allied forces could do for now, at least until next month, and so they consiliated their positions around them and the smaller groups of North Koreans. An attempt was made by the Soviets to link up with one of those KPA pockets. A pair of battalions of T-64s from the 277th Motorised Rifle Division’s tank regiment – using up their fuel at an alarming rate – pushed forward in a major attack. This was deemed by the Allies to be an attempt to not retake territory or save those North Koreans but instead grab them to use as bullet-soakers around them when faced with overwhelming numbers of Allied forces closing in. It was a good attack, one which might have worked. However, North Korean communications were intercepted as they spoke internally over the radio where units were warned of the approach of the Soviets. South Korean tanks but also anti-tank units, guns and dismounted missile teams, got in the way and the attack ground to a halt short of its objectives. There was an anticipation that the Sixty–Eighth Corps would try again but they didn’t. They were now conserving their fuel. More fool them. Allied troops were moved to surround them, ready to move in at a later point.
The war south of the Han was won. The Allies had secured a victory. It was only now about convincing the Soviets and the last of the North Koreans that they had lost. Part of that included spreading more rumours among the KPA, this time with the Korean CIA doing all the work themselves to get this started. The newest story was that the ‘new regime’ in Pyongyang had made peace with the Allies. Similar attempts weren’t tried with any serious effort made for the fighting which continued north of the Han. The Australians and Malaysians – there were troops from New Zealand, the Philippines and Singapore too with them yet far fewer in number – joined with larger numbers of South Koreans in fighting there. The central mountain spine which ran down the Korean Peninsula saw crossings made over it of further South Koreans from the eastern side of South Korea during January. Over there, the KPA attack in the war’s first days had stalled and never gotten very far with no major successes occurring in going south like they did in better terrain to the west. The South Koreans had continually been sending smaller numbers of men for many months from their eastern defences to the west though still retaining large numbers of troops over there. Now, most of them were moving over the mountains and down to the western side of the country. The Americans had long wanted them to do it earlier, trying to bring them under central control of the Combined Forces Korea headquarters but the South Koreans had resisted this and kept them independent. They hadn’t kept them there when they were needed to the west because they were stupid. They were waiting for a time such as this when they wouldn’t be whittled away in small fights but could be used all at once. Making the transfer in the bad weather of the New Year was done too because the intention was for the North Koreans – aided by Soviet reconnaissance efforts – to not realise until it was far too late.
A bigger battle, nearer to the DMZ, to the northeast of Seoul was coming. The South Koreans were going to settle many scores with the KPA occupiers who had a hold of their territory there. Everything that they knew about the horrors of that occupation was true and they planned to put that right soon enough. Before then, troops moved forward and into position. Ammunition and fuel, what their opponents would kill for, what they had been told to kill for, was with them and while not plentiful, there was judged enough to do what needed to be done. That was to clear all South Korean territory south of the DMZ of the enemy. They’d move to do that in February and wouldn’t stop until every last occupier was dead or prisoner: allowing them to get back over the DMZ wasn’t an option.
[End of Part VII]
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 15, 2018 21:25:01 GMT
So the plan is, more or less, a last final big offensive in China...so that troops (and more importantly equipment) can be quickly diverted in Western Europe to scare into submission or more probably attack the Maastrich block and back to the workforce before the consequences become too massive? Well, what can go wrong? Isn't the definition of foolishness doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result? That is not YET 'the plan'. But, it is the ongoing thinking. Notice the spoken division in the Politburo though. That is what is important. With regards to China, the fail, repeat, fail, repeat, fail is what has been going on.
I'm beginning to wonder if Vorotnikov's obsessive attacks in China is an even bigger mistake than the initial invasion of the US be his predecessors, especially given the clear potential threat from the EDA. Sounds like a huge amount of forces and reserves are being moblised for the quagmire that will be China. I wonder if Gromyko's health will be affected by showing he has an active brain-cell? Vorotnikov is reaching 45 Hitler levels of delusion. Which could be potentially very dangerous for everybody with so many nukes under his control. Trying to invade Tibet is especially stupid as the 2 armies are going to face huge problems, both with logistics and with trying to operate on the Tibetan plateau, especially in winter! If had any sense he would have realised the Soviets have already effectively achieved their purpose in China as the country has ceased to be any sort of threat other than by swallowing units thrown into it.
Also a bit surprised about the US committing all that air power to supporting China when it could be very useful at home, or even supporting allies in Europe. Some of that stuff might have really inflicted some crushing defeats on the recent Soviet naval pushes, rather than the bloody attritional slogs that have occurred.
If Vorotnikov has stripped the Soviets so bare I can see even the weaker EDA forces in Europe holding and quite possibly forcing the WP forces back after initial losses. Especially since even if he has the sense to admit he's been wrong its a bloody long way trying to retrieve forces from any part of China. This does further reinforce my argument that sending those 4 British Arm divs to the continent to support the EDA would be a poor decision.
On Taiwan it could be risky making a bid for Hainan and its doubtful if they could hold it if any CCP state survives. With the nukes the US won't be happy, although they might be glad their outside CCP hands. I remember reading that after they lost US support in the early 70's Taiwan tried starting a secret nuclear programme for a deterrent force but once the US found out about it they put a hell of a lot of pressure on them to drop it. [Possibly however also a lot of conventional military support in compensation.]
You would be correct. The manpower commitment is huge and ongoing: North American deployments pale in comparison. Ah, the Gromyko thing will become a growing issue. The US air strikes were in an area opposite South Korea, western Japan and Okinawa. That was the reason. They failed too. Lesson hopefully learnt. Taiwan is supplying the US with munitions now, 'dumb' weapons built in busy factories, and that saw the change in view as long as Tawian doesn't support the USSR in sinking China. Taiwan stealing five tac nukes, even that tiny number, will enrage the US went they find out though Taiwan is now holding more cards (supplying arms) than they did before. I'm sure with stolen 'live' weapons, any Taiwanese effort to restart their own programme, encouraged by what has occurred in China, will get a shot in the arm.
Ah do I detect a decision by Vorotnikov that he has to retire due to a sudden fatal illness "to spend more time with his family".  That someone has the original idea that the 1st thing to do about that deep hole their in is to stop digging it deeper. Just because no one openly supported Gromyko doesn't necessarily mean others don't agree with him. That could lead to a change in leadership and strategy, especially if the situation in N America becomes terminal after this last offensive fails. Unless the Soviet reserves are totally bogged down in China they could still rescue their position in Europe although I think they would have to give up their gains in this conflict at a minimum.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 15, 2018 21:45:51 GMT
(288)January 1985: The Korean Peninsula Allied forces in South Korea once again cut the connections from invading forces south of the Han to their positions north of that river. From out of the Seoul Pocket, fighting a slow-moving and brutal battle, American and South Korean troops succeeded in cutting off North Korean and Soviet troops out ahead. They were then reinforced and the area of liberated territory widened when Commonwealth troops – the bashed-about Australians along with a recent increase in numbers of Malaysians – joined in. The Australians and Malaysians ended up with forward positions facing northwards and to the east; positioned southwards were the American and South Korean. These fighting men were tired and due for a break after doing what they had but orders came to push onwards, going even further south and retaking further occupied soil as well. They came up against North Korean troops whose positions looked formidable yet were brittle. First the 3rd Marine Division and then the South Korean 9th Infantry Division (the famous White Horse) overcame enemy resistance as they struck and broke through significantly. Their pace picked up as they advanced and all North Koreans before them broke. There came less and less return fire and a mass of surrendering prisoners. Two more South Korean divisions along with an armoured brigade, joined by the US Army’s 25th Infantry Division, entered the fight and broadened the frontage. Huge areas of previously-occupied land was retaken. Nowhere could the North Koreans hold on and they were barely even fighting any more. Away to the north, the other Allied troops facing further North Koreans dug in between the Han and the DMZ were facing strong and spirited opposition, but there was none of that to the south. Only when the Allied attack reached the Soviets and their two-division corps did the wildly-successful offensive come to a halt when they came into contact with those opponents. Once stopped, the Allies now had to deal with the staggering number of prisoners which they took in sixteen days of going forward. There were nearly one hundred and eighty thousand of them, the majority of whom needed urgent medical care too. The Korean People’s Army (KPA) had just fallen apart so completely and rapidly. Why? It was a combination of many factors. Firstly, the KPA had been fighting south of the DMZ since mid-September and there had been no let-up at all. Conditions for the men enforced by officers and political commissars were almost barbaric. These men ate scraps, suffered ridiculously harsh punishments for the smallest things and were generally in sorry state. Victories which they won brought them nothing but another fight to have straight afterwards. Morale was non-existent. That would have long ago killed any other army but not the KPA due to the men who were frightened of their own regime, for themselves but also their families back home, more than any enemy they might face. The cessation of ammunition supplies was another key factor which broke the North Koreans. The first time that there had been a cutting of connections running back north, the interruption had been short and supplies already forward were used before the Soviets arrived to tear through Allied lines. Following behind their tanks came trucks laden with bullets and shells for the KPA. This second time that the Allies cut them off was worse than the first though and occurred when ammunition levels were at rock bottom. Instructions came that those cut-off troops were to fight with their bare hands if necessary and then seize from overcome enemies their weapons and ammunition. This was utterly stupid and wholly impossible. The KPA ran out of bullets and thus couldn’t return fire against the attacking Allies. Those who sent the orders for the men to fight with their bare hands weren’t the ones who would have to run into machine gun fire without having any covering support, were they? Thirdly, the final factor in the sudden KPA collapse was a rumour. It started within the North Korean lines themselves, one stamped hard upon by political officers with executions made. The rumour reached South Korean ears though and the Korean CIA (who held a larger role than the now-defunct American CIA when it came to South Korean military affairs) decided to make use of it. They helped respread the story that Kim Il-sung was dead, killed at American hands. This meant that the certainly that the fighting men had that the regime would punish them for any surrender and also seek revenge upon their families too was gone. Kim was supposedly dead and back home there would be no deadly retribution for any failure to continue fighting when they couldn’t anyway. It was a perfect storm. What began as a small Allied offensive became that rout of the KPA. There were still other groups of North Koreans south of the Han, already in isolated groups and not part of the collapsed force but they were ultimately doomed as well. The Soviets remained also yet they too were well and truly cut off. Their own ammunition was soon to run out but before then fuel, the lack of to be exact, looked likely to be the cause of their downfall. The KPA had long become a majority dismounted force but the Soviet Sixty–Eighth Army Corps had all of their tanks, their infantry fighting vehicles and self-propelled guns. They needed fuel or were fast going to be static pillboxes ready to be picked off by accurate fire. What really would have helped speed up the process of destroying both the last of the North Koreans and the Soviets too would have been significant air attacks. Those B-52s re-tasked from missions above the Korean Peninsula to the air strikes made against China would have been perfect for this. Combined Forces Korea had had no say over that decision and there was a mood of (an unsaid) ‘I told you so’ with that. They still missed those bombers though. Tactical air strikes just couldn’t make up for the tonnage that waves of bombers would bring to play. That B-52s were elsewhere though and there was still a war to fight. Reaching the Soviets was all that the Allied forces could do for now, at least until next month, and so they consiliated their positions around them and the smaller groups of North Koreans. An attempt was made by the Soviets to link up with one of those KPA pockets. A pair of battalions of T-64s from the 277th Motorised Rifle Division’s tank regiment – using up their fuel at an alarming rate – pushed forward in a major attack. This was deemed by the Allies to be an attempt to not retake territory or save those North Koreans but instead grab them to use as bullet-soakers around them when faced with overwhelming numbers of Allied forces closing in. It was a good attack, one which might have worked. However, North Korean communications were intercepted as they spoke internally over the radio where units were warned of the approach of the Soviets. South Korean tanks but also anti-tank units, guns and dismounted missile teams, got in the way and the attack ground to a halt short of its objectives. There was an anticipation that the Sixty–Eighth Corps would try again but they didn’t. They were now conserving their fuel. More fool them. Allied troops were moved to surround them, ready to move in at a later point. The war south of the Han was won. The Allies had secured a victory. It was only now about convincing the Soviets and the last of the North Koreans that they had lost. Part of that included spreading more rumours among the KPA, this time with the Korean CIA doing all the work themselves to get this started. The newest story was that the ‘new regime’ in Pyongyang had made peace with the Allies. Similar attempts weren’t tried with any serious effort made for the fighting which continued north of the Han. The Australians and Malaysians – there were troops from New Zealand, the Philippines and Singapore too with them yet far fewer in number – joined with larger numbers of South Koreans in fighting there. The central mountain spine which ran down the Korean Peninsula saw crossings made over it of further South Koreans from the eastern side of South Korea during January. Over there, the KPA attack in the war’s first days had stalled and never gotten very far with no major successes occurring in going south like they did in better terrain to the west. The South Koreans had continually been sending smaller numbers of men for many months from their eastern defences to the west though still retaining large numbers of troops over there. Now, most of them were moving over the mountains and down to the western side of the country. The Americans had long wanted them to do it earlier, trying to bring them under central control of the Combined Forces Korea headquarters but the South Koreans had resisted this and kept them independent. They hadn’t kept them there when they were needed to the west because they were stupid. They were waiting for a time such as this when they wouldn’t be whittled away in small fights but could be used all at once. Making the transfer in the bad weather of the New Year was done too because the intention was for the North Koreans – aided by Soviet reconnaissance efforts – to not realise until it was far too late. A bigger battle, nearer to the DMZ, to the northeast of Seoul was coming. The South Koreans were going to settle many scores with the KPA occupiers who had a hold of their territory there. Everything that they knew about the horrors of that occupation was true and they planned to put that right soon enough. Before then, troops moved forward and into position. Ammunition and fuel, what their opponents would kill for, what they had been told to kill for, was with them and while not plentiful, there was judged enough to do what needed to be done. That was to clear all South Korean territory south of the DMZ of the enemy. They’d move to do that in February and wouldn’t stop until every last occupier was dead or prisoner: allowing them to get back over the DMZ wasn’t an option. [End of Part VII]
That sounds promising, especially with the collapse of so much of the KPA army and that the Soviet force running out of fuel at such a rate. Can't remember what the actual situation in N Korea is but think its pretty much out of troops. Which could mean the Soviets have to decide whether they should divert more forces from China to defend their 'ally'. This is probably more likely if Vorotnikov falls as I think a new regime would seek to cut its losses in China and just hold the line, which would free up a lot of troops. Most of which I suspect would be headed back to Europe but some could 'protect' N Korea as a long established ally.
Presumably the B-52's can still play a role before any offensives, go in. Just not as much for as long as if they hadn't been risked over China?
Steve
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Post by lukedalton on Nov 15, 2018 22:01:46 GMT
That is not YET 'the plan'. But, it is the ongoing thinking. Notice the spoken division in the Politburo though. That is what is important. With regards to China, the fail, repeat, fail, repeat, fail is what has been going on. You would be correct. The manpower commitment is huge and ongoing: North American deployments pale in comparison. Ah, the Gromyko thing will become a growing issue. The US air strikes were in an area opposite South Korea, western Japan and Okinawa. That was the reason. They failed too. Lesson hopefully learnt. Taiwan is supplying the US with munitions now, 'dumb' weapons built in busy factories, and that saw the change in view as long as Tawian doesn't support the USSR in sinking China. Taiwan stealing five tac nukes, even that tiny number, will enrage the US went they find out though Taiwan is now holding more cards (supplying arms) than they did before. I'm sure with stolen 'live' weapons, any Taiwanese effort to restart their own programme, encouraged by what has occurred in China, will get a shot in the arm.
Ah do I detect a decision by Vorotnikov that he has to retire due to a sudden fatal illness "to spend more time with his family". That someone has the original idea that the 1st thing to do about that deep hole their in is to stop digging it deeper. Just because no one openly supported Gromyko doesn't necessarily mean others don't agree with him. That could lead to a change in leadership and strategy, especially if the situation in N America becomes terminal after this last offensive fails. Unless the Soviet reserves are totally bogged down in China they could still rescue their position in Europe although I think they would have to give up their gains in this conflict at a minimum.
The problem in this line of thought, is that even if the most logical and rational thing to do; give up the gain till now obtained and even see a probable collapse of their position in Latin America...will mean a very probable revolution at home just after the end of the conflict. The Soviet leaderships had spent too much blood and tresure in this war to end it with empty hand; so they are trapped, ironically as the entente and cp leadership a century earlier (at least for now, 70 years for them), in this dilemma. Gromyko may have spoken something that everybody think, but more than the 'great leader' the rest fear the reaction of their own population if they can't make the entire war worth it.
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Post by eurowatch on Nov 16, 2018 0:08:17 GMT
(288)January 1985: The Korean Peninsula Allied forces in South Korea once again cut the connections from invading forces south of the Han to their positions north of that river. From out of the Seoul Pocket, fighting a slow-moving and brutal battle, American and South Korean troops succeeded in cutting off North Korean and Soviet troops out ahead. They were then reinforced and the area of liberated territory widened when Commonwealth troops – the bashed-about Australians along with a recent increase in numbers of Malaysians – joined in. The Australians and Malaysians ended up with forward positions facing northwards and to the east; positioned southwards were the American and South Korean. These fighting men were tired and due for a break after doing what they had but orders came to push onwards, going even further south and retaking further occupied soil as well. They came up against North Korean troops whose positions looked formidable yet were brittle. First the 3rd Marine Division and then the South Korean 9th Infantry Division (the famous White Horse) overcame enemy resistance as they struck and broke through significantly. Their pace picked up as they advanced and all North Koreans before them broke. There came less and less return fire and a mass of surrendering prisoners. Two more South Korean divisions along with an armoured brigade, joined by the US Army’s 25th Infantry Division, entered the fight and broadened the frontage. Huge areas of previously-occupied land was retaken. Nowhere could the North Koreans hold on and they were barely even fighting any more. Away to the north, the other Allied troops facing further North Koreans dug in between the Han and the DMZ were facing strong and spirited opposition, but there was none of that to the south. Only when the Allied attack reached the Soviets and their two-division corps did the wildly-successful offensive come to a halt when they came into contact with those opponents. Once stopped, the Allies now had to deal with the staggering number of prisoners which they took in sixteen days of going forward. There were nearly one hundred and eighty thousand of them, the majority of whom needed urgent medical care too. The Korean People’s Army (KPA) had just fallen apart so completely and rapidly. Why? It was a combination of many factors. Firstly, the KPA had been fighting south of the DMZ since mid-September and there had been no let-up at all. Conditions for the men enforced by officers and political commissars were almost barbaric. These men ate scraps, suffered ridiculously harsh punishments for the smallest things and were generally in sorry state. Victories which they won brought them nothing but another fight to have straight afterwards. Morale was non-existent. That would have long ago killed any other army but not the KPA due to the men who were frightened of their own regime, for themselves but also their families back home, more than any enemy they might face. The cessation of ammunition supplies was another key factor which broke the North Koreans. The first time that there had been a cutting of connections running back north, the interruption had been short and supplies already forward were used before the Soviets arrived to tear through Allied lines. Following behind their tanks came trucks laden with bullets and shells for the KPA. This second time that the Allies cut them off was worse than the first though and occurred when ammunition levels were at rock bottom. Instructions came that those cut-off troops were to fight with their bare hands if necessary and then seize from overcome enemies their weapons and ammunition. This was utterly stupid and wholly impossible. The KPA ran out of bullets and thus couldn’t return fire against the attacking Allies. Those who sent the orders for the men to fight with their bare hands weren’t the ones who would have to run into machine gun fire without having any covering support, were they? Thirdly, the final factor in the sudden KPA collapse was a rumour. It started within the North Korean lines themselves, one stamped hard upon by political officers with executions made. The rumour reached South Korean ears though and the Korean CIA (who held a larger role than the now-defunct American CIA when it came to South Korean military affairs) decided to make use of it. They helped respread the story that Kim Il-sung was dead, killed at American hands. This meant that the certainly that the fighting men had that the regime would punish them for any surrender and also seek revenge upon their families too was gone. Kim was supposedly dead and back home there would be no deadly retribution for any failure to continue fighting when they couldn’t anyway. It was a perfect storm. What began as a small Allied offensive became that rout of the KPA. There were still other groups of North Koreans south of the Han, already in isolated groups and not part of the collapsed force but they were ultimately doomed as well. The Soviets remained also yet they too were well and truly cut off. Their own ammunition was soon to run out but before then fuel, the lack of to be exact, looked likely to be the cause of their downfall. The KPA had long become a majority dismounted force but the Soviet Sixty–Eighth Army Corps had all of their tanks, their infantry fighting vehicles and self-propelled guns. They needed fuel or were fast going to be static pillboxes ready to be picked off by accurate fire. What really would have helped speed up the process of destroying both the last of the North Koreans and the Soviets too would have been significant air attacks. Those B-52s re-tasked from missions above the Korean Peninsula to the air strikes made against China would have been perfect for this. Combined Forces Korea had had no say over that decision and there was a mood of (an unsaid) ‘I told you so’ with that. They still missed those bombers though. Tactical air strikes just couldn’t make up for the tonnage that waves of bombers would bring to play. That B-52s were elsewhere though and there was still a war to fight. Reaching the Soviets was all that the Allied forces could do for now, at least until next month, and so they consiliated their positions around them and the smaller groups of North Koreans. An attempt was made by the Soviets to link up with one of those KPA pockets. A pair of battalions of T-64s from the 277th Motorised Rifle Division’s tank regiment – using up their fuel at an alarming rate – pushed forward in a major attack. This was deemed by the Allies to be an attempt to not retake territory or save those North Koreans but instead grab them to use as bullet-soakers around them when faced with overwhelming numbers of Allied forces closing in. It was a good attack, one which might have worked. However, North Korean communications were intercepted as they spoke internally over the radio where units were warned of the approach of the Soviets. South Korean tanks but also anti-tank units, guns and dismounted missile teams, got in the way and the attack ground to a halt short of its objectives. There was an anticipation that the Sixty–Eighth Corps would try again but they didn’t. They were now conserving their fuel. More fool them. Allied troops were moved to surround them, ready to move in at a later point. The war south of the Han was won. The Allies had secured a victory. It was only now about convincing the Soviets and the last of the North Koreans that they had lost. Part of that included spreading more rumours among the KPA, this time with the Korean CIA doing all the work themselves to get this started. The newest story was that the ‘new regime’ in Pyongyang had made peace with the Allies. Similar attempts weren’t tried with any serious effort made for the fighting which continued north of the Han. The Australians and Malaysians – there were troops from New Zealand, the Philippines and Singapore too with them yet far fewer in number – joined with larger numbers of South Koreans in fighting there. The central mountain spine which ran down the Korean Peninsula saw crossings made over it of further South Koreans from the eastern side of South Korea during January. Over there, the KPA attack in the war’s first days had stalled and never gotten very far with no major successes occurring in going south like they did in better terrain to the west. The South Koreans had continually been sending smaller numbers of men for many months from their eastern defences to the west though still retaining large numbers of troops over there. Now, most of them were moving over the mountains and down to the western side of the country. The Americans had long wanted them to do it earlier, trying to bring them under central control of the Combined Forces Korea headquarters but the South Koreans had resisted this and kept them independent. They hadn’t kept them there when they were needed to the west because they were stupid. They were waiting for a time such as this when they wouldn’t be whittled away in small fights but could be used all at once. Making the transfer in the bad weather of the New Year was done too because the intention was for the North Koreans – aided by Soviet reconnaissance efforts – to not realise until it was far too late. A bigger battle, nearer to the DMZ, to the northeast of Seoul was coming. The South Koreans were going to settle many scores with the KPA occupiers who had a hold of their territory there. Everything that they knew about the horrors of that occupation was true and they planned to put that right soon enough. Before then, troops moved forward and into position. Ammunition and fuel, what their opponents would kill for, what they had been told to kill for, was with them and while not plentiful, there was judged enough to do what needed to be done. That was to clear all South Korean territory south of the DMZ of the enemy. They’d move to do that in February and wouldn’t stop until every last occupier was dead or prisoner: allowing them to get back over the DMZ wasn’t an option. [End of Part VII] Say James, are you going to continue writing this TL after the war is over? I am pretty curious as to what happens afterwards and how the world has changed. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 16, 2018 0:19:08 GMT
Ah do I detect a decision by Vorotnikov that he has to retire due to a sudden fatal illness "to spend more time with his family". That someone has the original idea that the 1st thing to do about that deep hole their in is to stop digging it deeper. Just because no one openly supported Gromyko doesn't necessarily mean others don't agree with him. That could lead to a change in leadership and strategy, especially if the situation in N America becomes terminal after this last offensive fails. Unless the Soviet reserves are totally bogged down in China they could still rescue their position in Europe although I think they would have to give up their gains in this conflict at a minimum.
The problem in this line of thought, is that even if the most logical and rational thing to do; give up the gain till now obtained and even see a probable collapse of their position in Latin America...will mean a very probable revolution at home just after the end of the conflict. The Soviet leaderships had spent too much blood and tresure in this war to end it with empty hand; so they are trapped, ironically as the entente and cp leadership a century earlier (at least for now, 70 years for them), in this dilemma. Gromyko may have spoken something that everybody think, but more than the 'great leader' the rest fear the reaction of their own population if they can't make the entire war worth it.
Actually I'm not assuming they give up anything at the moment, although if a serious defeat in the US means the collapse of their position there, which is an obvious trigger to a coup against Vorotnikov then their position in Latin America will be lost. Their best bet then would be to seek a peace settlement with minimal losses elsewhere and hope the US gets bogged down in seeking to pacify/stablise/whatever term you choose in the region.
As to any peace term I would expect that that would have to given up all wartime gains in western Europe and elsewhere but if they started action more rationally and start moving before they bog down even more of their forces in China they could have a decent chance of keeping their position in eastern Europe, quite possibly N Korea and even most of their influence in the ME. At least for a while in the latter case although it might become a mega Afghanistan for them a few years down the line.
What they should realise is that they have lost in terms of the anyway impossible delusion of 'winning' in N America. Even if the two armies that have - minus some losses - arrived there win big they can't approach conquering the country and if they did get anywhere near it even Glenn would bring out some nukes. For China hold pretty much what they have, with some changes to get the best defensive lines and use air power to pound Chinese production and military positions, especially anything approaching their defenses, which can then be smashed up by Soviet heavy units. China can resist but it can't really attack the Soviets by conventional means. Could be some very nasty guerilla warfare there however which would be bloody for both sides. You can keep some units in reserve, have a few defending N Korea and move most of those forces back towards Europe, probably even demoblising some to ease the strain on the economy. This would deter or defeat and EDA attack - or even if they think it worthwhile probably enable a victory in western Europe at least until Paris uses nukes. However the main aim would be to end the war as they can't, Vorotnikov's delusions regardless, win a total victory. The regime would be weakened no doubt but it has a good chance of surviving.
On the last point don't forget that Lenin himself twice accepted ruinous territorial losses, in 1918 v Germany and 1921 v Poland and Stalin was fully expecting Hitler to offer terms which would leave him in power but with a lot of lands ceded to Nazi control. As such a war that ends with no territorial gains, but with China gravely weakened and NATO split while large areas of the western powers, especially if there's a conflict with the EDA needing extensive reconstruction, doesn't look too bad in comparison.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 16, 2018 10:08:02 GMT
(288)January 1985: The Korean Peninsula Part of that included spreading more rumours among the KPA, t [End of Part VII] Great update as ussal James. By Korean CIA do you mean the united of the CIA ore the South Korean version called the Agency for National Security Planning (ANSP) which i think you mean. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 16, 2018 11:23:26 GMT
(287)January 1985: China At a Defence Council meeting just before the end of the month, called when the Western Europeans formed their military alliance and put troops into Sweden, a voice of opposition was raised to the wisdom of this. It came from Gromyko. The Soviet Foreign Minister spoke carefully but plainly. China was going to fold, Hu wasn’t going to give in. No one supported him openly. Vorotnikov listened but assured him and the others that that wouldn’t occur. Of course the Chinese would give in. Of course they would.
James
Forgot to say earlier but I assume that should be Gromyko saying "China wasn't going to fold"?
Also forgot to mention but can't see Hong Kong escaping Macao's fate. Britain is too far away and too hard pressed to send any help so unless someone else steps in I can't see order being maintained. Taiwan might want/try to but I suspect that would be politically suicidal for the HK authorities to accept because as well as refugees you would get a Chinese military response. ANZ and allies might step in but their pretty busy in Korea and probably clashing with Soviet subs and the like to spare the resources I fear.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 16, 2018 11:28:29 GMT
(287)January 1985: China At a Defence Council meeting just before the end of the month, called when the Western Europeans formed their military alliance and put troops into Sweden, a voice of opposition was raised to the wisdom of this. It came from Gromyko. The Soviet Foreign Minister spoke carefully but plainly. China was going to fold, Hu wasn’t going to give in. No one supported him openly. Vorotnikov listened but assured him and the others that that wouldn’t occur. Of course the Chinese would give in. Of course they would. James Forgot to say earlier but I assume that should be Gromyko saying "China wasn't going to fold"? Also forgot to mention but can't see Hong Kong escaping Macao's fate. Britain is too far away and too hard pressed to send any help so unless someone else steps in I can't see order being maintained. Taiwan might want/try to but I suspect that would be politically suicidal for the HK authorities to accept because as well as refugees you would get a Chinese military response. ANZ and allies might step in but their pretty busy in Korea and probably clashing with Soviet subs and the like to spare the resources I fear. Steve
What about enlarging the Hong Kong Regiment and maybe get Taiwan to supply the weapons for them, have the enlarge Hong Kong regiment create a safety zone outside Hong Kong. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Nov 16, 2018 12:58:09 GMT
James Forgot to say earlier but I assume that should be Gromyko saying "China wasn't going to fold"? Also forgot to mention but can't see Hong Kong escaping Macao's fate. Britain is too far away and too hard pressed to send any help so unless someone else steps in I can't see order being maintained. Taiwan might want/try to but I suspect that would be politically suicidal for the HK authorities to accept because as well as refugees you would get a Chinese military response. ANZ and allies might step in but their pretty busy in Korea and probably clashing with Soviet subs and the like to spare the resources I fear. Steve
What about enlarging the Hong Kong Regiment and maybe get Taiwan to supply the weapons for them, have the enlarge Hong Kong regiment create a safety zone outside Hong Kong. There just isn't a way to do that quickly enough. There are far too many refugees. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 17, 2018 18:22:56 GMT
That is not YET 'the plan'. But, it is the ongoing thinking. Notice the spoken division in the Politburo though. That is what is important. With regards to China, the fail, repeat, fail, repeat, fail is what has been going on. You would be correct. The manpower commitment is huge and ongoing: North American deployments pale in comparison. Ah, the Gromyko thing will become a growing issue. The US air strikes were in an area opposite South Korea, western Japan and Okinawa. That was the reason. They failed too. Lesson hopefully learnt. Taiwan is supplying the US with munitions now, 'dumb' weapons built in busy factories, and that saw the change in view as long as Tawian doesn't support the USSR in sinking China. Taiwan stealing five tac nukes, even that tiny number, will enrage the US went they find out though Taiwan is now holding more cards (supplying arms) than they did before. I'm sure with stolen 'live' weapons, any Taiwanese effort to restart their own programme, encouraged by what has occurred in China, will get a shot in the arm.
Ah do I detect a decision by Vorotnikov that he has to retire due to a sudden fatal illness "to spend more time with his family". That someone has the original idea that the 1st thing to do about that deep hole their in is to stop digging it deeper. Just because no one openly supported Gromyko doesn't necessarily mean others don't agree with him. That could lead to a change in leadership and strategy, especially if the situation in N America becomes terminal after this last offensive fails. Unless the Soviet reserves are totally bogged down in China they could still rescue their position in Europe although I think they would have to give up their gains in this conflict at a minimum.
You may possibly suspect that that may be things turn out in the end, but I couldn't possibly comment on such a matter.
That sounds promising, especially with the collapse of so much of the KPA army and that the Soviet force running out of fuel at such a rate. Can't remember what the actual situation in N Korea is but think its pretty much out of troops. Which could mean the Soviets have to decide whether they should divert more forces from China to defend their 'ally'. This is probably more likely if Vorotnikov falls as I think a new regime would seek to cut its losses in China and just hold the line, which would free up a lot of troops. Most of which I suspect would be headed back to Europe but some could 'protect' N Korea as a long established ally.
Presumably the B-52's can still play a role before any offensives, go in. Just not as much for as long as if they hadn't been risked over China?
Steve
The Soviet troops stuck that far in South Korea are stuck. Doomed for good. Everyone in China is needed in China really though, despite that, there might be a political decision to 'reinforce' - save - North Korea by blocking any offensive to go north of the DMZ. Oh, the B-52s can just be re-tasked. They are flying from Guam and Okinawa so it is just a matter of sending them on missions north rather than west. The whole initial redirect can be reversed. A lot of it was politics but also that Soviet air presence in Shandong which was being projected eastwards. There will be a compromise. The B-52s stayed out of Chinese airspace, the F-4s got hit there, so their numbers are good. The problem in this line of thought, is that even if the most logical and rational thing to do; give up the gain till now obtained and even see a probable collapse of their position in Latin America...will mean a very probable revolution at home just after the end of the conflict. The Soviet leaderships had spent too much blood and tresure in this war to end it with empty hand; so they are trapped, ironically as the entente and cp leadership a century earlier (at least for now, 70 years for them), in this dilemma. Gromyko may have spoken something that everybody think, but more than the 'great leader' the rest fear the reaction of their own population if they can't make the entire war worth it.
Being sensible wouldn't run with the current leadership. Vortonikov inherited this war and has made it his own but its now gone too far. His leadership is only a few months old so not completely secure. As to the public, they can always take the Saddam-1991 approach as say 'we won'. Its a hard sell, yes, but not impossible. Who inside the Soviet Union will know different and can prove it. I'm not saying it would work, but it might be an avenue that the leadership could try. Say James, are you going to continue writing this TL after the war is over? I am pretty curious as to what happens afterwards and how the world has changed. I will give a 'long' epilogue on the future as I do with my stories usually. But with so many changes, that might be a bit wild! To be honest, I'm looking forward to starting my next story! Great update as ussal James. By Korean CIA do you mean the united of the CIA ore the South Korean version called the Agency for National Security Planning (ANSP) which i think you mean. Thank you very much. Yep, my mistake. I should have checked. Edited now.
James
Forgot to say earlier but I assume that should be Gromyko saying "China wasn't going to fold"?
Also forgot to mention but can't see Hong Kong escaping Macao's fate. Britain is too far away and too hard pressed to send any help so unless someone else steps in I can't see order being maintained. Taiwan might want/try to but I suspect that would be politically suicidal for the HK authorities to accept because as well as refugees you would get a Chinese military response. ANZ and allies might step in but their pretty busy in Korea and probably clashing with Soviet subs and the like to spare the resources I fear.
Steve
Damn, another typo. Edited. Thank you. I have an idea on who might step in but even then, things aren't looking good. That 250'000 number is an estimate made from on the ground in HK. It could be far bigger. Taiwan is a no-no: UK-Taiwan relations aren't brilliant and London will see that as going down the wrong route. Australian and New Zealand are being asked for fighting men for Korea and have already taken huge losses. Fighting for HK might not be politically acceptable for them either as this isn't actually an invasion but rather a refugee issue. What about enlarging the Hong Kong Regiment and maybe get Taiwan to supply the weapons for them, have the enlarge Hong Kong regiment create a safety zone outside Hong Kong. That would be invading China! In the UK, its not on the cards. Otherwise, the HK Regiment idea is possible though would need time... and there is none of that. There just isn't a way to do that quickly enough. There are far too many refugees. That is the issue with regards to time. Despite some of them being violent, a lot of armed deserting soldiers, most refugees are just desperate people. All of whom want safety and all of whom have needs that the colonial authorities cannot meet. |
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That someone has the original idea that the 1st thing to do about that deep hole their in is to stop digging it deeper. Just because no one openly supported Gromyko doesn't necessarily mean others don't agree with him. That could lead to a change in leadership and strategy, especially if the situation in N America becomes terminal after this last offensive fails. Unless the Soviet reserves are totally bogged down in China they could still rescue their position in Europe although I think they would have to give up their gains in this conflict at a minimum.
