lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 27, 2018 19:31:27 GMT
Make this happen! Just kidding, but I'd love to see what Moscow does now. View AttachmentWould that be a screenshot from World in Conflict, a good game.
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Post by redrobin65 on Oct 27, 2018 21:00:03 GMT
Make this happen! Just kidding, but I'd love to see what Moscow does now. View AttachmentWould that be a screenshot from World in Conflict, a good game. Yep, it's WIC.
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 28, 2018 9:25:21 GMT
Regarding Sweden, in case of war of the three option that Palme have, fighting alongside Western Europe (at this stage) his the less politically and ideologically problematic (not say easy, it will be a very hard decision for him and his goverment) just the less painfull to swallow; even because they know that if they fight alone the only real option is to die with honor.
For a new NATO, well maybe it will be more politically feasible at the moment something like the reactivation of the Western European Organization (happened in OTL 1984) and attach that to NATO as a quasi-separate organization (at least in theory), as a mean to solve the political impasse; and yes the rest will have problem with that but both London and New York will be forced to admit that's a great method to put pressure on Moscow and divert resources from their front to another place. Frankly both the Netherland and Belgium goverment know that if Scandinavia fall and the UK is forced to surrender they are next in line...so it's very probably that a lot of their protest will be for show (not the one of Netherland regarding their violation of neutrality, that will be serious...but i think they will be done more in private) but in the end agree to add some more 'clause'
Mitterand will be under an enourmous pressure to reveal at the nation what's happening after the DSGE had not recovered the girl, everybody in the goverment will understand that having the President under potential blackmail in this circumstance can cause, in the best case scenario, a political crisis in a crucial moment...and the more cynical will suggest (with a lot of tact and subletly) that this can bring the nation around the president and even sway the opinion of many in other part of Europe, citizen and politicians alike.
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 28, 2018 9:31:22 GMT
The collapse of NATO under those circumstances is probably a weak point, even with Kennedy's errors, but not as weak as the idea that the Soviets could wage a successful war in N America despite overwhelming US [and allied] naval power to blockade any reinforcements. Or even that they could think they would be able to. In the story James has been quite favourable to the Soviets at sea to enable the current set of reinforcements to get as far as it has, with a quite effective initial strike and then some very costly overconfident pushes, especially into the Norwegian sea. Even so the Soviet attack is running out of steam, even apart from the quagmire in China. This isn't a complaint about James's handling of it but something that was necessary for a story as wild as the plot of the Red Dawn film to even vaguely occur.
It's that while all this thing had be done for story necessity and frankly they can be dismissed with some necessary 'suspension of disbelier', the NATO break up story wise seem IMHO a rushed job, too quick, seem like that many scene had been removed in the cuttin room.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 28, 2018 10:09:43 GMT
Regarding Sweden, in case of war of the three option that Palme have, fighting alongside Western Europe (at this stage) his the less politically and ideologically problematic (not say easy, it will be a very hard decision for him and his goverment) just the less painfull to swallow; even because they know that if they fight alone the only real option is to die with honor. For a new NATO, well maybe it will be more politically feasible at the moment something like the reactivation of the Western European Organization (happened in OTL 1984) and attach that to NATO as a quasi-separate organization (at least in theory), as a mean to solve the political impasse; and yes the rest will have problem with that but both London and New York will be forced to admit that's a great method to put pressure on Moscow and divert resources from their front to another place. Frankly both the Netherland and Belgium goverment know that if Scandinavia fall and the UK is forced to surrender they are next in line...so it's very probably that a lot of their protest will be for show (not the one of Netherland regarding their violation of neutrality, that will be serious...but i think they will be done more in private) but in the end agree to add some more 'clause' Mitterand will be under an enourmous pressure to reveal at the nation what's happening after the DSGE had not recovered the girl, everybody in the goverment will understand that having the President under potential blackmail in this circumstance can cause, in the best case scenario, a political crisis in a crucial moment...and the more cynical will suggest (with a lot of tact and subletly) that this can bring the nation around the president and even sway the opinion of many in other part of Europe, citizen and politicians alike.
The problem Palme will have is that fighting along western Europe means fighting alongside Britain, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. Especially if the Danes aren't also being threatened he would have little confidence that the neutral bloc would support him. Either way, after Sweden falls, as it almost certainly will, Norway is indefensible. Britain's status is worsened, especially if the neutrals still think Britain can defeat an invasion as then they would still be happy to sit on their hands and let others do the dying.
Will NATO want to be attached to a group of countries that take binding agreements as optional when it suits them? It sounds like the Soviet empire is going down in a big way so there would be no great need to include them. If it didn't and the Soviets still controlled eastern Europe would Britain, Canada and the US be willing to base forces in Germany and other parts of eastern Europe again? They could say that if the Soviets attacked the 'neutral bloc' they might support it but I doubt they would be willing to be bound by treaty again after the desertion. The US especially is likely to be hostile to the idea and I can't see the other allies being that friendly either after the lives that have been lost because of it.
Agree it would be best for Mitterand to come clean and make clear he won't be influenced by the threat to his family. Although it could well be fatal for the child but that's the fault of the Soviets. It would also bring home, possibly even more than the widespread bloodshed occurring around the world, what the allies are fighting against.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 28, 2018 10:12:44 GMT
The collapse of NATO under those circumstances is probably a weak point, even with Kennedy's errors, but not as weak as the idea that the Soviets could wage a successful war in N America despite overwhelming US [and allied] naval power to blockade any reinforcements. Or even that they could think they would be able to. In the story James has been quite favourable to the Soviets at sea to enable the current set of reinforcements to get as far as it has, with a quite effective initial strike and then some very costly overconfident pushes, especially into the Norwegian sea. Even so the Soviet attack is running out of steam, even apart from the quagmire in China. This isn't a complaint about James's handling of it but something that was necessary for a story as wild as the plot of the Red Dawn film to even vaguely occur.
It's that while all this thing had be done for story necessity and frankly they can be dismissed with some necessary 'suspension of disbelier', the NATO break up story wise seem IMHO a rushed job, too quick, seem like that many scene had been removed in the cuttin room.
Possibly there could have been more detail but it was necessary for the scenario that the bulk of the continent deserts its commitments for mutual defence. If they had fought then it would tie down a lot of Soviet forces and give the additional strength to the allied navies and martime air the Soviet successes in the Atlantic would be even more unlikely.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 28, 2018 18:39:41 GMT
Make this happen! Just kidding, but I'd love to see what Moscow does now. We will have to see. Should the Soviets go for a drive to the Rhine, when their forces in Eastern Europe get stuck, as they eventually would, there is not much behind them. Moscow is busy on the flanks for the time being... but a war in Europe is still not off the table as the situation keeps getting worse.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 28, 2018 18:52:02 GMT
Regarding Sweden, in case of war of the three option that Palme have, fighting alongside Western Europe (at this stage) his the less politically and ideologically problematic (not say easy, it will be a very hard decision for him and his goverment) just the less painfull to swallow; even because they know that if they fight alone the only real option is to die with honor. For a new NATO, well maybe it will be more politically feasible at the moment something like the reactivation of the Western European Organization (happened in OTL 1984) and attach that to NATO as a quasi-separate organization (at least in theory), as a mean to solve the political impasse; and yes the rest will have problem with that but both London and New York will be forced to admit that's a great method to put pressure on Moscow and divert resources from their front to another place. Frankly both the Netherland and Belgium goverment know that if Scandinavia fall and the UK is forced to surrender they are next in line...so it's very probably that a lot of their protest will be for show (not the one of Netherland regarding their violation of neutrality, that will be serious...but i think they will be done more in private) but in the end agree to add some more 'clause' Mitterand will be under an enourmous pressure to reveal at the nation what's happening after the DSGE had not recovered the girl, everybody in the goverment will understand that having the President under potential blackmail in this circumstance can cause, in the best case scenario, a political crisis in a crucial moment...and the more cynical will suggest (with a lot of tact and subletly) that this can bring the nation around the president and even sway the opinion of many in other part of Europe, citizen and politicians alike. If it came to it, I think that Sweden would fight with a French-led Western Europe especially to defend itself as there could be no objection to that in a manner of infringing Swedish neutrality. The WEU had Britain as a partner though. Perhaps that could be ignored maybe, I'm not so sure. From the Low Countries, it is posturing, not serious issues. The governments just do not want to get tied into something they can't control. This war has seen nukes used and the actual use, not the maybe of pre-war, has concentrated minds greatly. The French Gov. know and so do many governments about who the missing girl is. It is the public who don't know. Mitterrand was naturally such a secretive, stubborn, proud etc person though. I can't see him telling the French people.
The problem Palme will have is that fighting along western Europe means fighting alongside Britain, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. Especially if the Danes aren't also being threatened he would have little confidence that the neutral bloc would support him. Either way, after Sweden falls, as it almost certainly will, Norway is indefensible. Britain's status is worsened, especially if the neutrals still think Britain can defeat an invasion as then they would still be happy to sit on their hands and let others do the dying.
Will NATO want to be attached to a group of countries that take binding agreements as optional when it suits them? It sounds like the Soviet empire is going down in a big way so there would be no great need to include them. If it didn't and the Soviets still controlled eastern Europe would Britain, Canada and the US be willing to base forces in Germany and other parts of eastern Europe again? They could say that if the Soviets attacked the 'neutral bloc' they might support it but I doubt they would be willing to be bound by treaty again after the desertion. The US especially is likely to be hostile to the idea and I can't see the other allies being that friendly either after the lives that have been lost because of it.
Agree it would be best for Mitterand to come clean and make clear he won't be influenced by the threat to his family. Although it could well be fatal for the child but that's the fault of the Soviets. " src="//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/superangry.png"] It would also bring home, possibly even more than the widespread bloodshed occurring around the world, what the allies are fighting against. I think that until Sweden is attacked, Palme will not see open talks with other nations on mutual defence. In previous decades, there were US-Swedish nuclear ties but nothing in the 80s of any Swedish alliance with other countries. Come war, Sweden will have to take allies when under attack. If Sweden falls, Norway falls. Britain will have to evacuate and will do anything to stop that. Losing the Norwegian southern coast would be like seeing the Soviets in the Low Countries: unacceptable. The whole new NATO thing is still something I am thinking on. But Mitterrand wasn't that type of person to tell people. His OTL actions to hide his cancer, his lovechild, his affairs and all his other 80s behaviour (I read up on this) doesn't seem to me that he would aboutturn. Now maybe if he puts a 'do as you must' message to the Soviets it could work to see them give up on that angle but public confession just won't play.
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 28, 2018 18:53:30 GMT
(274)
December 1984: The Aegean
The Greek-Turkish War in the Aegean was brought to a close before the end of the year. Outside intervention forced Athens and Ankara to agree to a ceasefire. That outside intervention came from the Soviet Union. Soviet diplomats acting overtly and covert KGB activities achieved what had been desired from the beginning. The expected results were regarded as a major geo-political victory of strategic implications in Moscow’s eyes. Whether it would help win the wider war of which the Aegean conflict hadn’t been directly part of was up for debate.
In the two capitals, the Greek and Turkish governments, both of which were looking at a way of getting out of this war despite public positions of fighting it to the finish, were met with extreme Soviet pressure to get them to cease fighting. Pushback came from each. The Greeks were losing yet their pride demanded that they keep fighting the hated Turks. The Turks were on the ascendancy though there was the concern that this war might never have an end any other way so they were more open to discussing a close to this but only when they were done teaching the Greeks a lesson. The Soviets played both sides off against each other, suggesting that they would intervene on behalf of the other. The threats brought strong reactions from each but also fear. Of the two, Turkey was in a better position to fend off a Soviet attack upon itself though the long-held fears of the Soviets having surrounding them, which led to its exit from its NATO treaty commitments, remained. The Greeks could only imagine what the Soviets would do to them should they act in concert with the Turks. Following these threats of joining one against the other, the Soviets then made a proposal to each of them which instead no longer spoke of war but peace. Neither government was seeing the whole picture, how each was being played like they were. Now, if they had stood together, faced down the Soviets together, then… but that wasn’t to be.
Turkey would withdraw from Rhodes and the Greeks would pull their major combat forces out of Crete. Cyprus would remain a frozen issue and an effective fait accompli with the Turkish victory there being de facto recognised as they wouldn’t intervene the establishment of civilian Greek-Cypriot rule in occupied southern parts of the island as long as that didn’t have an armed element. Turkey could thus gain effective control of Cyprus without any Greek military presence to threaten the northern half. Greece would see the occupied island of Rhodes returned. No longer would air and naval conflict rage across the Aegean Sea with attacks on shipping ceasing and laid minefields identified & cleared. The brutal stalemate in the fighting on the mainland border between the two nations, along the Thrace frontline, would end as each side withdrew all but an agreed minimum number of troops there; no longer would gunfire and shelling take place there. Partial demilitarization would occur on Crete and Lesvos from forward-positioned Greek forces as well as with the massed Turkish forces stationed west of Izmir pulling back from their invasion posture towards Khios. Prisoners of war would be returned unconditionally by either side with none held despite allegations against some of them for purported war crimes.
From Athens and Ankara, there were all sorts of objections to certain points of the Soviet-pushed ceasefire agreement when it came to individual matters. Neither government objected outright to the idea of the ceasefire itself though once they had convinced themselves – helped by Moscow – of the need to end their war. The back-and-forth picking at certain elements went on for some time and changes were made on specific points. The key points were Cyprus’ demilitarization with the Greeks wanting Turkish-Cypriot forces disarmed and also Turkish concerns over the Greek military presence in Thrace their side of the border there. The differences were either ironed out or kicked into the long grass for later.
Bulgaria, which had studiously kept out of the Greek-Turkish War at Soviet insistence, despite opportunities staring the country in the face, was chosen as neutral ground for Athens and Ankara to send diplomats to sign a ceasefire. The Soviets hosted the event in Sofia, getting the two sides together. The governments back in Greece and Turkey had now resigned themselves to the upcoming ceasefire though had yet to make their populations aware of this: Greece worried more over the domestic reaction to an end to the fighting more than the Turks did. It was once they were in Sofia and about to sign a ceasefire document and have instructions sent for an end to the fighting that the Soviets sprung a surprise on them both. At that point, any sensible government in Athens would have recalled its diplomats and carried on the fighting. The Turks probably should have done the same, should the long-term implications have been better considered. The Soviet surprise delayed matters by a few days though already there had been a serious lull in the fighting down in the Aegean ahead of this with no major operations going on. Peace was at hand, just a few strokes of the pen away. The ceasefire was signed and it came with the Soviets helping to aid that – to ensure the peace – as they introduced military forces into the region.
Once the Sofia Ceasefire was in effect, the Turkish Straits were open without provisions for Soviet military vessels to pass through while it was at war with other countries… oh and also monitoring the ceasefire in the Aegean too because that was really what this access was all about, wasn’t it? Since the beginning of the wider conflict, Turkey had been restricting access through the Turkish Straits for Soviet warships and submarines. Many had passed, just at a slow rate: now all restrictions were off though the Soviet Union would pay fees for each passage. In the Aegean, for the Soviets to help enforce the ceasefire, and of course to operate further afield too, Soviet air and naval access was allowed to Souda Bay which included the military airbase as well as the port facility there. Once a hub of American and NATO activity before Greece had left NATO several years ago, Soviet ships had been making stops at Souda Bay and paying fees while the Greeks considered each instance on a case-by-case basis since World War Three started. That restriction was no longer to be and a lump sum payment for Greece was made for that access, money desperately needed in Athens. No Soviet forces were legally allowed to be based there but they could come and go as pleased.
Whatever the legal niceties might say or not say, the Soviet Union had a military port to operate from in the Mediterranean now and free access to there plus its excellent a-joining airbase too. They got all this by stopping a war which they had started then playing divide-and-rule with Greece and Turkey. It was a far-reaching diplomatic coup indeed.
As 1984 came to a close, Soviet naval forces moved down from the Black Sea to join those already in the Mediterranean. Aircraft transited through Souda Bay and so did a great number of warships previously held back. These were all supposed to be in the Aegean to stop the Greeks and Turks from fighting each other. They preformed no such mission but instead carried onwards past Crete into the Med. In the new year, using Souda Bay as a backstop with Libya midway and Malta as a forward post, they’d be heading for the Gibraltar Straits with an ultimate destination being the Atlantic to link up with the Azores forward outpost.
In Athens, there were celebrations at the end of the war from some crowds while others demonstrated against an end to that war without defeating the Turks. Street battles took place and chaos reigned in Greece despite Soviet financial aid, money which would come not free either. The Turkish public were sold a victory. If they wanted to complain or protest, they’d meet the security forces who wouldn’t accept anything resembling Athens in Ankara or Istanbul. The siege of Nicosia was lifted on Cyprus but the Greek-Cypriot population wasn’t really freed. At any time now, Turkey would do as it wished with the southern part of the island. The refugees inside the British garrisons on the island started to return home, releasing the strain on them, yet where before the position for the UK of its forces on the island had been near-untenable, now they faced a worse situation with the Soviets available to move on them at their leisure and the Turks sure to look the other way. French and Italian naval forces in both the Ionian and Tyrrhenian Seas, looked on as Soviet ships flooded the Mediterranean. Paris and Rome had been worried over the threat to the Baltic in the north yet now there was this menace on Western Europe’s southern flank making itself really known here as well. 1985 wasn’t going to be pleasant, especially following events also in December ’84 down in Libya with shored up the Soviet position even greater.
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 28, 2018 20:07:45 GMT
For Sweden, well once the war become hot for them, Palme and his goverment will probably look away at this little detail like UK memberships in the WEU...as frankly i doubt that their military commanders had given an opinion different from: alone we are so toasted that's not even funnny; hell people will probably tell him that becoming a member of the EEC/WEU/whatever now can be the move necessary to avoid an armed conflict Things like that make acceptable things that's just before were not and at least the WEU is not NATO.
Ok, frankly i not see the Athens and Ankara goverments being so brain dead and accept the Soviet proposal, while i doubt that the US will attack them i expect Bruxelles, in the name of the rest of Europe neutral nation, to give them not only a big formal protest but imply that this move will have consequences (of the 'has been good have an economy' type) and they better hope that Moscow win the war. Honestly i was expecting more an european move to end the war and stop precisely this kind of move...Moscow has probably been more quick. With a move like that and the foreshadowed Libya development i doubt that even the Western Germany and Benelux goverment can be too slow as western europe is now basically surrounded and very soon the Soviet will come again with their demand.
Cynically, many goverments in all Europe will hope for some big breakthrough by China as more bloody is that conflict more resources Moscow must use there and not in any possible war against EEC/WEU/please somebody found a name because the European neutralist bloc is not really catchy.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 28, 2018 20:08:47 GMT
(274)December 1984: The Aegean The Greek-Turkish War in the Aegean was brought to a close before the end of the year. Outside intervention forced Athens and Ankara to agree to a ceasefire. That outside intervention came from the Soviet Union. Soviet diplomats acting overtly and covert KGB activities achieved what had been desired from the beginning. The expected results were regarded as a major geo-political victory of strategic implications in Moscow’s eyes. Whether it would help win the wider war of which the Aegean conflict hadn’t been directly part of was up for debate. In the two capitals, the Greek and Turkish governments, both of which were looking at a way of getting out of this war despite public positions of fighting it to the finish, were met with extreme Soviet pressure to get them to cease fighting. Pushback came from each. The Greeks were losing yet their pride demanded that they keep fighting the hated Turks. The Turks were on the ascendancy though there was the concern that this war might never have an end any other way so they were more open to discussing a close to this but only when they were done teaching the Greeks a lesson. The Soviets played both sides off against each other, suggesting that they would intervene on behalf of the other. The threats brought strong reactions from each but also fear. Of the two, Turkey was in a better position to fend off a Soviet attack upon itself though the long-held fears of the Soviets having surrounding them, which led to its exit from its NATO treaty commitments, remained. The Greeks could only imagine what the Soviets would do to them should they act in concert with the Turks. Following these threats of joining one against the other, the Soviets then made a proposal to each of them which instead no longer spoke of war but peace. Neither government was seeing the whole picture, how each was being played like they were. Now, if they had stood together, faced down the Soviets together, then… but that wasn’t to be. Turkey would withdraw from Rhodes and the Greeks would pull their major combat forces out of Crete. Cyprus would remain a frozen issue and an effective fait accompli with the Turkish victory there being de facto recognised as they wouldn’t intervene the establishment of civilian Greek-Cypriot rule in occupied southern parts of the island as long as that didn’t have an armed element. Turkey could thus gain effective control of Cyprus without any Greek military presence to threaten the northern half. Greece would see the occupied island of Rhodes returned. No longer would air and naval conflict rage across the Aegean Sea with attacks on shipping ceasing and laid minefields identified & cleared. The brutal stalemate in the fighting on the mainland border between the two nations, along the Thrace frontline, would end as each side withdrew all but an agreed minimum number of troops there; no longer would gunfire and shelling take place there. Partial demilitarization would occur on Crete and Lesvos from forward-positioned Greek forces as well as with the massed Turkish forces stationed west of Izmir pulling back from their invasion posture towards Khios. Prisoners of war would be returned unconditionally by either side with none held despite allegations against some of them for purported war crimes. From Athens and Ankara, there were all sorts of objections to certain points of the Soviet-pushed ceasefire agreement when it came to individual matters. Neither government objected outright to the idea of the ceasefire itself though once they had convinced themselves – helped by Moscow – of the need to end their war. The back-and-forth picking at certain elements went on for some time and changes were made on specific points. The key points were Cyprus’ demilitarization with the Greeks wanting Turkish-Cypriot forces disarmed and also Turkish concerns over the Greek military presence in Thrace their side of the border there. The differences were either ironed out or kicked into the long grass for later. Bulgaria, which had studiously kept out of the Greek-Turkish War at Soviet insistence, despite opportunities staring the country in the face, was chosen as neutral ground for Athens and Ankara to send diplomats to sign a ceasefire. The Soviets hosted the event in Sofia, getting the two sides together. The governments back in Greece and Turkey had now resigned themselves to the upcoming ceasefire though had yet to make their populations aware of this: Greece worried more over the domestic reaction to an end to the fighting more than the Turks did. It was once they were in Sofia and about to sign a ceasefire document and have instructions sent for an end to the fighting that the Soviets sprung a surprise on them both. At that point, any sensible government in Athens would have recalled its diplomats and carried on the fighting. The Turks probably should have done the same, should the long-term implications have been better considered. The Soviet surprise delayed matters by a few days though already there had been a serious lull in the fighting down in the Aegean ahead of this with no major operations going on. Peace was at hand, just a few strokes of the pen away. The ceasefire was signed and it came with the Soviets helping to aid that – to ensure the peace – as they introduced military forces into the region. Once the Sofia Ceasefire was in effect, the Turkish Straits were open without provisions for Soviet military vessels to pass through while it was at war with other countries… oh and also monitoring the ceasefire in the Aegean too because that was really what this access was all about, wasn’t it? Since the beginning of the wider conflict, Turkey had been restricting access through the Turkish Straits for Soviet warships and submarines. Many had passed, just at a slow rate: now all restrictions were off though the Soviet Union would pay fees for each passage. In the Aegean, for the Soviets to help enforce the ceasefire, and of course to operate further afield too, Soviet air and naval access was allowed to Souda Bay which included the military airbase as well as the port facility there. Once a hub of American and NATO activity before Greece had left NATO several years ago, Soviet ships had been making stops at Souda Bay and paying fees while the Greeks considered each instance on a case-by-case basis since World War Three started. That restriction was no longer to be and a lump sum payment for Greece was made for that access, money desperately needed in Athens. No Soviet forces were legally allowed to be based there but they could come and go as pleased. Whatever the legal niceties might say or not say, the Soviet Union had a military port to operate from in the Mediterranean now and free access to there plus its excellent a-joining airbase too. They got all this by stopping a war which they had started then playing divide-and-rule with Greece and Turkey. It was a far-reaching diplomatic coup indeed. As 1984 came to a close, Soviet naval forces moved down from the Black Sea to join those already in the Mediterranean. Aircraft transited through Souda Bay and so did a great number of warships previously held back. These were all supposed to be in the Aegean to stop the Greeks and Turks from fighting each other. They preformed no such mission but instead carried onwards past Crete into the Med. In the new year, using Souda Bay as a backstop with Libya midway and Malta as a forward post, they’d be heading for the Gibraltar Straits with an ultimate destination being the Atlantic to link up with the Azores forward outpost. In Athens, there were celebrations at the end of the war from some crowds while others demonstrated against an end to that war without defeating the Turks. Street battles took place and chaos reigned in Greece despite Soviet financial aid, money which would come not free either. The Turkish public were sold a victory. If they wanted to complain or protest, they’d meet the security forces who wouldn’t accept anything resembling Athens in Ankara or Istanbul. The siege of Nicosia was lifted on Cyprus but the Greek-Cypriot population wasn’t really freed. At any time now, Turkey would do as it wished with the southern part of the island. The refugees inside the British garrisons on the island started to return home, releasing the strain on them, yet where before the position for the UK of its forces on the island had been near-untenable, now they faced a worse situation with the Soviets available to move on them at their leisure and the Turks sure to look the other way. French and Italian naval forces in both the Ionian and Tyrrhenian Seas, looked on as Soviet ships flooded the Mediterranean. Paris and Rome had been worried over the threat to the Baltic in the north yet now there was this menace on Western Europe’s southern flank making itself really known here as well. 1985 wasn’t going to be pleasant, especially following events also in December ’84 down in Libya with shored up the Soviet position even greater. Another good update James. So the Greek-Turkish War has ended and the only winner is the Soviet Union i guess.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 28, 2018 22:42:32 GMT
(274)December 1984: The Aegean The Greek-Turkish War in the Aegean was brought to a close before the end of the year. Outside intervention forced Athens and Ankara to agree to a ceasefire. That outside intervention came from the Soviet Union. Soviet diplomats acting overtly and covert KGB activities achieved what had been desired from the beginning. The expected results were regarded as a major geo-political victory of strategic implications in Moscow’s eyes. Whether it would help win the wider war of which the Aegean conflict hadn’t been directly part of was up for debate. In the two capitals, the Greek and Turkish governments, both of which were looking at a way of getting out of this war despite public positions of fighting it to the finish, were met with extreme Soviet pressure to get them to cease fighting. Pushback came from each. The Greeks were losing yet their pride demanded that they keep fighting the hated Turks. The Turks were on the ascendancy though there was the concern that this war might never have an end any other way so they were more open to discussing a close to this but only when they were done teaching the Greeks a lesson. The Soviets played both sides off against each other, suggesting that they would intervene on behalf of the other. The threats brought strong reactions from each but also fear. Of the two, Turkey was in a better position to fend off a Soviet attack upon itself though the long-held fears of the Soviets having surrounding them, which led to its exit from its NATO treaty commitments, remained. The Greeks could only imagine what the Soviets would do to them should they act in concert with the Turks. Following these threats of joining one against the other, the Soviets then made a proposal to each of them which instead no longer spoke of war but peace. Neither government was seeing the whole picture, how each was being played like they were. Now, if they had stood together, faced down the Soviets together, then… but that wasn’t to be. Turkey would withdraw from Rhodes and the Greeks would pull their major combat forces out of Crete. Cyprus would remain a frozen issue and an effective fait accompli with the Turkish victory there being de facto recognised as they wouldn’t intervene the establishment of civilian Greek-Cypriot rule in occupied southern parts of the island as long as that didn’t have an armed element. Turkey could thus gain effective control of Cyprus without any Greek military presence to threaten the northern half. Greece would see the occupied island of Rhodes returned. No longer would air and naval conflict rage across the Aegean Sea with attacks on shipping ceasing and laid minefields identified & cleared. The brutal stalemate in the fighting on the mainland border between the two nations, along the Thrace frontline, would end as each side withdrew all but an agreed minimum number of troops there; no longer would gunfire and shelling take place there. Partial demilitarization would occur on Crete and Lesvos from forward-positioned Greek forces as well as with the massed Turkish forces stationed west of Izmir pulling back from their invasion posture towards Khios. Prisoners of war would be returned unconditionally by either side with none held despite allegations against some of them for purported war crimes. From Athens and Ankara, there were all sorts of objections to certain points of the Soviet-pushed ceasefire agreement when it came to individual matters. Neither government objected outright to the idea of the ceasefire itself though once they had convinced themselves – helped by Moscow – of the need to end their war. The back-and-forth picking at certain elements went on for some time and changes were made on specific points. The key points were Cyprus’ demilitarization with the Greeks wanting Turkish-Cypriot forces disarmed and also Turkish concerns over the Greek military presence in Thrace their side of the border there. The differences were either ironed out or kicked into the long grass for later. Bulgaria, which had studiously kept out of the Greek-Turkish War at Soviet insistence, despite opportunities staring the country in the face, was chosen as neutral ground for Athens and Ankara to send diplomats to sign a ceasefire. The Soviets hosted the event in Sofia, getting the two sides together. The governments back in Greece and Turkey had now resigned themselves to the upcoming ceasefire though had yet to make their populations aware of this: Greece worried more over the domestic reaction to an end to the fighting more than the Turks did. It was once they were in Sofia and about to sign a ceasefire document and have instructions sent for an end to the fighting that the Soviets sprung a surprise on them both. At that point, any sensible government in Athens would have recalled its diplomats and carried on the fighting. The Turks probably should have done the same, should the long-term implications have been better considered. The Soviet surprise delayed matters by a few days though already there had been a serious lull in the fighting down in the Aegean ahead of this with no major operations going on. Peace was at hand, just a few strokes of the pen away. The ceasefire was signed and it came with the Soviets helping to aid that – to ensure the peace – as they introduced military forces into the region. Once the Sofia Ceasefire was in effect, the Turkish Straits were open without provisions for Soviet military vessels to pass through while it was at war with other countries… oh and also monitoring the ceasefire in the Aegean too because that was really what this access was all about, wasn’t it? Since the beginning of the wider conflict, Turkey had been restricting access through the Turkish Straits for Soviet warships and submarines. Many had passed, just at a slow rate: now all restrictions were off though the Soviet Union would pay fees for each passage. In the Aegean, for the Soviets to help enforce the ceasefire, and of course to operate further afield too, Soviet air and naval access was allowed to Souda Bay which included the military airbase as well as the port facility there. Once a hub of American and NATO activity before Greece had left NATO several years ago, Soviet ships had been making stops at Souda Bay and paying fees while the Greeks considered each instance on a case-by-case basis since World War Three started. That restriction was no longer to be and a lump sum payment for Greece was made for that access, money desperately needed in Athens. No Soviet forces were legally allowed to be based there but they could come and go as pleased. Whatever the legal niceties might say or not say, the Soviet Union had a military port to operate from in the Mediterranean now and free access to there plus its excellent a-joining airbase too. They got all this by stopping a war which they had started then playing divide-and-rule with Greece and Turkey. It was a far-reaching diplomatic coup indeed. As 1984 came to a close, Soviet naval forces moved down from the Black Sea to join those already in the Mediterranean. Aircraft transited through Souda Bay and so did a great number of warships previously held back. These were all supposed to be in the Aegean to stop the Greeks and Turks from fighting each other. They preformed no such mission but instead carried onwards past Crete into the Med. In the new year, using Souda Bay as a backstop with Libya midway and Malta as a forward post, they’d be heading for the Gibraltar Straits with an ultimate destination being the Atlantic to link up with the Azores forward outpost. In Athens, there were celebrations at the end of the war from some crowds while others demonstrated against an end to that war without defeating the Turks. Street battles took place and chaos reigned in Greece despite Soviet financial aid, money which would come not free either. The Turkish public were sold a victory. If they wanted to complain or protest, they’d meet the security forces who wouldn’t accept anything resembling Athens in Ankara or Istanbul. The siege of Nicosia was lifted on Cyprus but the Greek-Cypriot population wasn’t really freed. At any time now, Turkey would do as it wished with the southern part of the island. The refugees inside the British garrisons on the island started to return home, releasing the strain on them, yet where before the position for the UK of its forces on the island had been near-untenable, now they faced a worse situation with the Soviets available to move on them at their leisure and the Turks sure to look the other way. French and Italian naval forces in both the Ionian and Tyrrhenian Seas, looked on as Soviet ships flooded the Mediterranean. Paris and Rome had been worried over the threat to the Baltic in the north yet now there was this menace on Western Europe’s southern flank making itself really known here as well. 1985 wasn’t going to be pleasant, especially following events also in December ’84 down in Libya with shored up the Soviet position even greater.
James
Ouch that's bad for the allies and also the neutrals. The Soviet Black Sea fleet will have a lot of power in the Med and forcing the straits, while it shouldn't be too difficult for subs could be costly for surface ships depending on what missiles the British and Spanish have available. I could see when the news comes out that the Soviets are free in the Med urgent searching for such missile to support such a force. Don't know if Britain still has any heavy guns in Gib but probably not. If they were and were well dug in that could be an awkward problem for any Soviet forces seeking to run the straits.
I'm a bit surprised that the Greeks and Turks fell for the Soviet trick as they should realised that its going to be difficult to get the Soviets out once their in. Also if the allies - along with possibly others - end up winning then Souda Bay is likely to be a crater when its returned to Greek control. Mind you it could be that given the level of hatred between the two not only was any joint co-operation between them against the Soviet practical but also the leaders were so eager to get out of a ruinous war that they jumped before they looked at the details.
Of course another issue is that Libya, a Soviet ally, currently occupies Malta IIRC. True there is likely to be a change of leadership in Libya but I can see Grand Harbour being a major Soviet base in the near future, which will cause concern for Italy especially but also the neutral bloc as well as the allies. If the Maltese thought their plight was bad before I fear its going to only get worse.
Steve
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Oct 28, 2018 22:57:48 GMT
For Sweden, well once the war become hot for them, Palme and his goverment will probably look away at this little detail like UK memberships in the WEU...as frankly i doubt that their military commanders had given an opinion different from: alone we are so toasted that's not even funnny; hell people will probably tell him that becoming a member of the EEC/WEU/whatever now can be the move necessary to avoid an armed conflict Things like that make acceptable things that's just before were not and at least the WEU is not NATO. Ok, frankly i not see the Athens and Ankara goverments being so brain dead and accept the Soviet proposal, while i doubt that the US will attack them i expect Bruxelles, in the name of the rest of Europe neutral nation, to give them not only a big formal protest but imply that this move will have consequences (of the 'has been good have an economy' type) and they better hope that Moscow win the war. Honestly i was expecting more an european move to end the war and stop precisely this kind of move...Moscow has probably been more quick. With a move like that and the foreshadowed Libya development i doubt that even the Western Germany and Benelux goverment can be too slow as western europe is now basically surrounded and very soon the Soviet will come again with their demand. Cynically, many goverments in all Europe will hope for some big breakthrough by China as more bloody is that conflict more resources Moscow must use there and not in any possible war against EEC/WEU/please somebody found a name because the European neutralist bloc is not really catchy.
Once war comes to Sweden, which now seems pretty much certain I fear, I doubt they would bother what alliances anyone who would help them belong to or don't. However I'm doubtful if even if the neutrals comes off the fence they can do anything, especially since if they do so as a bloc their busy defending W Germany, Denmark and after that last update Italy - as well as seeing what they can do to help Austria which is almost certain to be attacked as well. Even if my suggestion of France joining the allies as a result and the Soviets don't expand the war to all of the continent then there's probably little they can do to help. As I think James said the Swedes might inflict some nasty losses on the Soviets and beat off the 1st attack but their too exposed and too difficult to support even if there were suitable forces available. It might be that winter would help and you get something like the Winter War but I can't see the Swedes holding out for months unless the Soviets really, really underestimate them.
The neutral bloc is too weak really in part because its defection from NATO means its word has less weight, especially when relating to anything military related. Also given it has a lot of heads and its distracted by the threat in the Baltic - presuming it realises how bad that is - its always going to move slower than the Soviets. Plus the Soviets want the war ended and control of the region so they can get their fleet out into the Med so they have a real incentive to do something.
Neutral bloc is the best name I can think of as it fits the circumstances but if you can think of another one that does the same by all means. There are others that would fit as accurately or more so but they would probably be thought offensive.
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 29, 2018 20:08:23 GMT
For Sweden, well once the war become hot for them, Palme and his goverment will probably look away at this little detail like UK memberships in the WEU...as frankly i doubt that their military commanders had given an opinion different from: alone we are so toasted that's not even funnny; hell people will probably tell him that becoming a member of the EEC/WEU/whatever now can be the move necessary to avoid an armed conflict Things like that make acceptable things that's just before were not and at least the WEU is not NATO. Ok, frankly i not see the Athens and Ankara goverments being so brain dead and accept the Soviet proposal, while i doubt that the US will attack them i expect Bruxelles, in the name of the rest of Europe neutral nation, to give them not only a big formal protest but imply that this move will have consequences (of the 'has been good have an economy' type) and they better hope that Moscow win the war. Honestly i was expecting more an european move to end the war and stop precisely this kind of move...Moscow has probably been more quick. With a move like that and the foreshadowed Libya development i doubt that even the Western Germany and Benelux goverment can be too slow as western europe is now basically surrounded and very soon the Soviet will come again with their demand. Cynically, many goverments in all Europe will hope for some big breakthrough by China as more bloody is that conflict more resources Moscow must use there and not in any possible war against EEC/WEU/please somebody found a name because the European neutralist bloc is not really catchy.
Once war comes to Sweden, which now seems pretty much certain I fear, I doubt they would bother what alliances anyone who would help them belong to or don't. However I'm doubtful if even if the neutrals comes off the fence they can do anything, especially since if they do so as a bloc their busy defending W Germany, Denmark and after that last update Italy - as well as seeing what they can do to help Austria which is almost certain to be attacked as well. Even if my suggestion of France joining the allies as a result and the Soviets don't expand the war to all of the continent then there's probably little they can do to help. As I think James said the Swedes might inflict some nasty losses on the Soviets and beat off the 1st attack but their too exposed and too difficult to support even if there were suitable forces available. It might be that winter would help and you get something like the Winter War but I can't see the Swedes holding out for months unless the Soviets really, really underestimate them.
The neutral bloc is too weak really in part because its defection from NATO means its word has less weight, especially when relating to anything military related. Also given it has a lot of heads and its distracted by the threat in the Baltic - presuming it realises how bad that is - its always going to move slower than the Soviets. Plus the Soviets want the war ended and control of the region so they can get their fleet out into the Med so they have a real incentive to do something.
Neutral bloc is the best name I can think of as it fits the circumstances but if you can think of another one that does the same by all means. There are others that would fit as accurately or more so but they would probably be thought offensive. Overextension is a problem that afflict also the Soviet, they are not the pre-war juggernaut with almost infinite men and resources, they have bleed a lot and the current conflict in China and North America are already used up a lot of resources (both human and material). By now, they have enough capacity to get to the Rhine suffering outrageous loss but nothing more and frankly by now i will not take for granted the loyalty and will to fight of the rest of the Warsaw Pact nation, if you add also an invasion of Sweden things become even more complicated for them. An operation of this kind need Speznats and Airborne troops, both probably very much depleted by the previous fight and even if something remain it will mean scrap the bottom of the barrel and use the last reserve...and all this mean even less resources for any direct attack at Western Europe, expecially if the general loss for this operation are severe for the Soviets. European possible involvement in the war in Sweden will be probably (at the initial stage) will be naval and aerial, closing even more the straits and block any attempt by the soviets to supply troops in Sweden (unless they use Finland to launch a direct invasion) Italy is in danger of aerial and naval attack at the moment not an invasion (if they try for Austria the terrain will hardly favor them) and for now the remaining soviet naval assets are other objective, but the fight has become from manageable to 'for their life' and as i said both Athens and Ankara will receive some nasty words from everyone. Neutral bloc is no good, because frankly not only is too generic but include even India, Greece and half of the world by this definition; by now there have been 4/5 months of war and the various European nations that already had decades of experience in working together through NATO but more importantly the EEC will have already created some unofficial modus operandi using the framework of pre-existent organization like the EEC and the WEU. Taking in consideration that this was a period of great euroenthusiasm and France seem to have taken the political lead of the group (economically it will be Germany the top dog) and maybe to make things more smooth but also to improve morale somekind of new organization will take the place of them basically a version of the Single European Act of 1986 an year early. Call it European Union, Euroconfederation, European Hegemony, etc. etc. Regarding their default of NATO obbligation, well the strategic problem is that France and co. are too much important from the military and economic pow to dismiss them too easily and i suspect that many military and political adviser of Palme will suggest to come to some agreement with them as they are more or less the only damned game in town capable to supporting against the Soviets as the British are barely hold on and even the US are overextend
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
Posts: 7,608
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Post by James G on Oct 29, 2018 20:18:05 GMT
For Sweden, well once the war become hot for them, Palme and his goverment will probably look away at this little detail like UK memberships in the WEU...as frankly i doubt that their military commanders had given an opinion different from: alone we are so toasted that's not even funnny; hell people will probably tell him that becoming a member of the EEC/WEU/whatever now can be the move necessary to avoid an armed conflict Things like that make acceptable things that's just before were not and at least the WEU is not NATO. Ok, frankly i not see the Athens and Ankara goverments being so brain dead and accept the Soviet proposal, while i doubt that the US will attack them i expect Bruxelles, in the name of the rest of Europe neutral nation, to give them not only a big formal protest but imply that this move will have consequences (of the 'has been good have an economy' type) and they better hope that Moscow win the war. Honestly i was expecting more an european move to end the war and stop precisely this kind of move...Moscow has probably been more quick. With a move like that and the foreshadowed Libya development i doubt that even the Western Germany and Benelux goverment can be too slow as western europe is now basically surrounded and very soon the Soviet will come again with their demand. Cynically, many goverments in all Europe will hope for some big breakthrough by China as more bloody is that conflict more resources Moscow must use there and not in any possible war against EEC/WEU/please somebody found a name because the European neutralist bloc is not really catchy. I can't see why Athens and Ankara wouldn't accept the deal but then I am blind to it as it was my creation. It gave them both a way out of the war, one which they didn't want to be a part of. I'll think of a name for the Western European neutralists. A 'Paris Pact' or something like that. Another good update James. So the Greek-Turkish War has ended and the only winner is the Soviet Union i guess. The only winner indeed. No one else will come away with anything good from this.
James
Ouch that's bad for the allies and also the neutrals. The Soviet Black Sea fleet will have a lot of power in the Med and forcing the straits, while it shouldn't be too difficult for subs could be costly for surface ships depending on what missiles the British and Spanish have available. I could see when the news comes out that the Soviets are free in the Med urgent searching for such missile to support such a force. Don't know if Britain still has any heavy guns in Gib but probably not. If they were and were well dug in that could be an awkward problem for any Soviet forces seeking to run the straits.
I'm a bit surprised that the Greeks and Turks fell for the Soviet trick as they should realised that its going to be difficult to get the Soviets out once their in. Also if the allies - along with possibly others - end up winning then Souda Bay is likely to be a crater when its returned to Greek control. Mind you it could be that given the level of hatred between the two not only was any joint co-operation between them against the Soviet practical but also the leaders were so eager to get out of a ruinous war that they jumped before they looked at the details.
Of course another issue is that Libya, a Soviet ally, currently occupies Malta IIRC. True there is likely to be a change of leadership in Libya but I can see Grand Harbour being a major Soviet base in the near future, which will cause concern for Italy especially but also the neutral bloc as well as the allies. If the Maltese thought their plight was bad before I fear its going to only get worse.
Steve
There will be a battle for the Gibraltar Straits coming up. Geography favours the Allies there greatly. Exocets in Gibraltar could do the job, maybe more in Ceuta. There were land-based versions available at the time. it will really be air power, mines, warships with missiles and subs which will fight the battle though. Grrece and Turkey had to work together but fighting, they were ripe for Soviet deviousness. Libya will get its change and Malta will play a role soon enough. It was taken for that reason back in September. Yes, Malta isn't a good place at the minute.
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