stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 24, 2018 22:49:39 GMT
James Well that was disappointing but getting predictable as the Soviet's have made great use of their anti-ship missiles and their subs have preformed a lot better than most people were expecting at the time.  Hopefully the Soviets can't do a mission like this again and their navy won't get home in any numbers. However at least some of the two convoys will get through unless the USAF can really hit them. which will however be costly even attempting. Alternatively their going to have to defeat those units and their equipment on the ground.
Glad the Hermes escaped as the RN is lucky it started with 3 CVLs under the circumstances and having already lost one further losses would be even more crippling. Mind you the RN will be greatly weakened and its unlikely, even if there was a change of PM, that many of the losses will be made up.
Steve
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 25, 2018 19:11:02 GMT
James Well that was disappointing but getting predictable as the Soviet's have made great use of their anti-ship missiles and their subs have preformed a lot better than most people were expecting at the time. Hopefully the Soviets can't do a mission like this again and their navy won't get home in any numbers. However at least some of the two convoys will get through unless the USAF can really hit them. which will however be costly even attempting. Alternatively their going to have to defeat those units and their equipment on the ground.
Glad the Hermes escaped as the RN is lucky it started with 3 CVLs under the circumstances and having already lost one further losses would be even more crippling. Mind you the RN will be greatly weakened and its unlikely, even if there was a change of PM, that many of the losses will be made up.
Steve
The US Navy carriers are #1 targets and the Soviets wanted those island bases to fly their bombers from. The Soviet Navy has and will be gutted by what they were ordered to do. I'm still thinking on the convoy landings and what comes from there. The RN had Invincible (lost with massive casualties) and Illustrious in service with Hermes in reserve. Ark Royal is a long time off. there are heli-capable ships. Well... it depends how the war ends. Britain, victors or losers, will not want to see all this again and while carriers would be excellent, so too would be massive anti-air/missile defences. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 25, 2018 19:11:51 GMT
(271)
December 1984: Britain
Those who lived through the winter of 1984-85 would said afterwards that Britain starved during that period. That wasn’t true. There were food shortages due to the war and problems with the bureaucracy of rationing, yet the country didn’t starve in reality. There was a lot of hunger and this brought discontent & expressed rage. People weren’t getting enough food to satisfy them and demanded more. If it wasn’t given, they tried to take it. The Minister for Rationing, Tom King, who reported direct to the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Office rather than through a department of state (i.e. the Department of Agriculture or the Home Office), was the most unpopular man in the country… the most unpopular woman being the PM herself. King was doing his best in a difficult job but that didn’t matter to those who stole and rioted. He held onto his post and in many ways that was because no one else in government wanted the job at a time like this. While enough food per official guidelines was issued per person nationwide via the rationing system – though with frequent cock-ups occurring in-places –, for those who received that ration, they wanted more. It didn’t matter that the government said that that was enough, more was demanded! There was more available too. A barrier stock was being built, a small amount of extras in case the issue with shipping got even worse than it already was.
‘Starving’ Britons turned to the black market where criminals operated supplying more food as well as unavailable goodies too. There were some who made plenty of money from stolen goods sold onwards to those in need. Others weren’t so lucky. They were caught, arrested and their wares taken from them. Court sentences were harsh with lengthy prison terms due to those caught. There were some criminals who sought to supply the black marketers, men with guns who raided food warehouses. In a country hit by Soviet Spetsnaz attacks, attempts at armed robberies on places guarded by either police with guns or home defence soldiers was only for the very brave or the very foolish. Ambushing food convoys on the move, as they went to went from depots to distribution points, was not as difficult yet still no easy feat itself. At those distribution points, where local council officials dealt with people at the sharp end of national rationing, there were few attempts at armed robberies of anything like that. Policemen were present inside and outside of them as trouble from them spread. Shouts, pleas and tears were present among those who queued for certain food items which they couldn’t get from shops where there were a lot of empty shelves. It was those with certain needs who went to these places: those with dietary complications, special religious requirements and disabilities. Stealing from these people happened a lot by other criminals though at the same time, people within the queues, often family members of those waiting, would verbally or physically abuse the staff. Riots would erupt stemming from arguments at such places with the police overwhelmed by weight of numbers, the staff fleeing and the sacking of such facilities by crowds acting like hordes of raiders from the Middle Ages.
The food issue led to a widespread feeling nationwide of no longer giving a damn about the war. Who cared about fighting far way, off in America and China and out at sea, when everyone was starving hungry? Censored newspapers and the radio & television news spoke of fighting in these places and repeated the government line of national unity and that all Britons were in this together etc etc. That message had been given for months now. Initial patriotic fever had been strong when the war started and Britain was attacked like it was yet it had never been complete: not everyone had been instantly behind the war. Those detained for the public good might have been those with the biggest mouths and a public profile, but for the man and woman in the street who had a complaint about the war – the millions of them who did – locking them up too was hardly feasible. Anti-war feeling rose despite all efforts to stop it. If the country hadn’t been so hungry, even if it wasn’t but the weather was better without the cold and dark days, then the people might have cared more about the war than they did by December. They didn’t though. One member of the cabinet suggested to his colleagues that things might have been different if Britain itself had been invaded. Attacked from the air with fighting in its nearby seas as well as commando raids, the country hadn’t been properly invaded like others in the Allies. Comparisons were made to Spain where there were reports of anti-war feelings running high; this stood in contrast to the invaded United States as well as Norway too. That might or might not have been true. Either way, it didn’t matter. The British people had had enough of this war. Serious violence had not yet come to the anti-war movement as the security services had been effective in rounding up leaders ahead of time – a gross infringement of civil liberties in peacetime; transition to war powers meant this was all legal – but new leaders were going to emerge soon enough. The government would have loved to head that off but had no idea how. Unless of course they wished to allow for the Soviets to invade!
A national government was still in-place within Britain. Serious internal disagreement within that wider group and then the narrower War Cabinet occurred frequently as there were bitter divides with transcended ordinary politics. They rowed over internal matters to do with the manner in which the country was being run while at war and also external concerns. The Soviets had repeatedly attacked the country with what regarded as near-impunity. They had struck at mainland Britain over and over again, killing thousands. There had been conventional attacks and also the use of chemical weapons. It was said that these attacks had gone unanswered. There were calls for the Soviets to be hit on their home soil just as Britain had been. The Americans were making attacks on the Soviet Union, so why couldn’t Britain? That secret Vulcan strike against Moscow, aborted when the aircraft were over Scandinavia, wasn’t something that was shared beyond the War Cabinet. British forces were fighting in the seas and skies around the country. There was also land combat in Norway and first up in Alaska before the small British detachment there moved down with the Canadians to join the fight in Colorado come the New Year. More was demanded though. The government was pressured to have British ground forces acting to influence the outcome of the war rather than sitting at home and – it was said – doing nothing. The British Army was still building its strength up though, ready to hold its own on the modern battlefield against whatever the Soviets might throw their way. Where that battlefield would be was the only question. Those who called for the soldiers to go off and fight couldn’t give an answer there: nor could the government. Tensions between Western Europe led by France and the Soviets on the other hand were only increasing. There also remained a notion to send the British Army to the fight in the United States, sending several heavy divisions rather than a small brigade, though nothing was definite on that. The British Army could end up back in West Germany or it might go to Texas: who knew?
To the critics, Thatcher and the War Cabinet sat twiddling their thumbs while all around them the world burned. Unfair that was, a total lie really, but it was said louder and louder.
In another theatre of warfare, that of the intelligence war, Britain remained busy. The Secret Intelligence Service – MI-6 – wouldn’t go anywhere near nor listen to anything that supposed defector named Peppermint that the Americans had their hands on could say, though there remained extremely close liaison with ‘the cousins’ across the ocean when it came to other matters. NISS was still being established and MI-6 had a small team over in America already set up to work with them. More MI-6 liaison staff were at Fort Meade in Maryland (it had received a strong dose of radiation from the DC strikes though the worse of that was back in late September / early October) where the National Security Agency was located. The NSA hadn’t been subsumed into the new NISS. This had upset some but pleased others. The British intelligence officers at Fort Meade were among the latter. Too much merging of the US Intelligence Community worried the British with the concern over them all reporting to one chief… it also would give those politicians back on their side of the ocean too many ideas about doing the same in Britain. Intelligence work conducted from the United States was done with the Americans under their lead. Elsewhere in the world, where MI-6 acted, it did so alone or with other allies. The CIA’s issues had opened up avenues for the Soviets that the British had scrambled to cover. Other members of the Five Eyes – Australia, Canada and New Zealand among Britain and America; all the Anglo-sphere countries – helped out where they could though MI-6 was still feeling the strain. Soviet diplomats and spies were active all over the world, threatening Britain’s interests and that of the wider Allied cause. Victories were won but defeats came too. People were the casualties of these clashes. If was often the case that in some lonely and unpleasant place, far from Britain’s shores, that MI-6’s casualties came where either their officers or third-party locals ended up killed with their ends not being easy. MI-6 got its licks in too, not playing by Queensbury Rules in any way. The global dirty intelligence war had no end in sight, just like the worldwide conventional fight.
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Post by redrobin65 on Oct 25, 2018 20:09:44 GMT
Good update!
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 25, 2018 22:09:47 GMT
Oh right, seem that the UK it's not in a good place...at least in WWII there were the sensation to fight back, here? Seem that the Soviets can do everything without consequences (sure it's not true, but this is what the man and woman in the street will feel).
Frankly i expect that the British goverment will ask the rest of the continent to rise the level of relief (expecially food) and it's very probable that whatever food can be spared will be destinated to the British Island (that it arrive at destination is another matter).
I expect that while the channel zone is dangerous there will be a lot of traffic, at least in term of small boat, as the usual suspect will try to bring food and other goods from the continent to the UK and to resell at exorbitant price (yes it's very dangerous, but historically had never stopped the greedy one) and naturally there will be the scum that will deal with another type of merchandise aka people.
I know it's silly, but i'm curious about how Doctor WHO and other popular entertainment will look in this period
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 26, 2018 0:16:46 GMT
James Would it actually be that bad? Thatcherism and the related abandonment of a sense of society and national identity hadn't sunk so deep by this date and there was still a sense of social cohesion in many areas, plus a fair number of older people who would remember the previous war, when again although there were air attacks and a threat of invasion, although not an actual occurrence. Also if there was a fair ration you might actually see some of the poorer elements better off as they might get a decent level of food, at least if it followed WWII practices. You might have problems with questions of fairness as I suspect at the top there would be a lot of corruption and the government probably having to hide at least some of this to avoid too much unrest and unpopularity. Also with the crisis of war a lot of the people made unemployed in the early 80's OTL are likely to get more chance of a decent job. [At least unless the government foul it up by seeking to force people into underpaid work, which is always a potential problem with Thatcher and her cronies.
Was the stupid attack on Moscow actually called off? I thought you had it actually go ahead and the aircrews getting slaughtered? Or is that a modification since then?
I think at least at 1st there would be a strong sense of national unity, especially if a more moderate national government was organised. You would have hard-liners, like Scargill on the left and much of the pre-war cabinet and their supporters on the right but in the situation of a dire external threat unless the government were really stupid they would be largely sidelined. [Actually your more probable to have unrest in the US because it doesn't really have even historical experiences of an invasion of any magnitude to prompt a sense of national unity].
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 26, 2018 0:26:02 GMT
Oh right, seem that the UK it's not in a good place...at least in WWII there were the sensation to fight back, here? Seem that the Soviets can do everything without consequences (sure it's not true, but this is what the man and woman in the street will feel). Frankly i expect that the British goverment will ask the rest of the continent to rise the level of relief (expecially food) and it's very probable that whatever food can be spared will be destinated to the British Island (that it arrive at destination is another matter). I expect that while the channel zone is dangerous there will be a lot of traffic, at least in term of small boat, as the usual suspect will try to bring food and other goods from the continent to the UK and to resell at exorbitant price (yes it's very dangerous, but historically had never stopped the greedy one) and naturally there will be the scum that will deal with another type of merchandise aka people. I know it's silly, but i'm curious about how Doctor WHO and other popular entertainment will look in this period
I can't see much scope for people smuggling, although there might be a few that seek to avoid conscription I suppose. A lot of smuggling no doubt, and dirty dealing inside the country on food and other items but that's likely to be more organised groups, quite possibly with some support from those in positions of power/influence. Much would depend on what the government does when such cases come to light. Does it seek to suppress details or make them public and punish the guilty regardless of their wealth and connections?
If the neutrals are supplying food from the considerable stockpiles of the time as aid rather than sales that would probably take some of the sting out of the bad feeling at their desertion of Britain and its allies.
Given the timescale I doubt there would be much scope for new programmes being produced although you could see a lot of repeats of old classics to try and boost morale. Also probably a shift to a more national viewpoint and pride in past achievements. Future programmes with the Doctor for instance are probably going to have less faffing about and questions of always finding peaceful settlements to problems/disputes and some action fighting. The Darleks are likely to be even more present in any episodes produced during the actual war or shortly afterwards.
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Oct 26, 2018 2:14:17 GMT
The intelligence war is going to get dirty.
Dirty beyond the scale of Helicopter assisted flying nuns dirty.
I wonder how the Press will react to stories of British agents torturing and murdering enemy agents?
It won't matter to some that the Soviets and her allies are doing the same or worse, "we're British DAMMIT, we don't do these things".
On top of that, what effect will it have on those officers post war?
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 26, 2018 9:39:30 GMT
Oh right, seem that the UK it's not in a good place...at least in WWII there were the sensation to fight back, here? Seem that the Soviets can do everything without consequences (sure it's not true, but this is what the man and woman in the street will feel). Frankly i expect that the British goverment will ask the rest of the continent to rise the level of relief (expecially food) and it's very probable that whatever food can be spared will be destinated to the British Island (that it arrive at destination is another matter). I expect that while the channel zone is dangerous there will be a lot of traffic, at least in term of small boat, as the usual suspect will try to bring food and other goods from the continent to the UK and to resell at exorbitant price (yes it's very dangerous, but historically had never stopped the greedy one) and naturally there will be the scum that will deal with another type of merchandise aka people. I know it's silly, but i'm curious about how Doctor WHO and other popular entertainment will look in this period
I can't see much scope for people smuggling, although there might be a few that seek to avoid conscription I suppose. A lot of smuggling no doubt, and dirty dealing inside the country on food and other items but that's likely to be more organised groups, quite possibly with some support from those in positions of power/influence. Much would depend on what the government does when such cases come to light. Does it seek to suppress details or make them public and punish the guilty regardless of their wealth and connections?
If the neutrals are supplying food from the considerable stockpiles of the time as aid rather than sales that would probably take some of the sting out of the bad feeling at their desertion of Britain and its allies.
Given the timescale I doubt there would be much scope for new programmes being produced although you could see a lot of repeats of old classics to try and boost morale. Also probably a shift to a more national viewpoint and pride in past achievements. Future programmes with the Doctor for instance are probably going to have less faffing about and questions of always finding peaceful settlements to problems/disputes and some action fighting. The Darleks are likely to be even more present in any episodes produced during the actual war or shortly afterwards.
Well the continent is the most (reletevely speaking naturaly) peacefull developed place in the plantet at the moment, and it's only at 33 km from Dover, so it will be a pretty tempting target, expecially with the rationing, air and commando raid and the use of chemical weapons; not considering the already presence of refugee from the UK at the moment at least in North France Sure the channel zone is very risky, but fear, hunger and desperation are pretty much very strong motivator
Well, there is an humanitarian relief attempt for Norht America big enough that the Soviets protested, so i expect that also the rest of Europe will get a lot or at least whatever get spared, the problem of the UK is that the european part of the relief program will be needed to be shared with Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Norway and naturally port facilities, food depot and ships will be a prime target for the Soviets is they want pound Great Britain in submission, plus in case like this the real big cost is not the merchandise itself but the transport due to the situation.
The EEC even if
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 26, 2018 10:59:31 GMT
I can't see much scope for people smuggling, although there might be a few that seek to avoid conscription I suppose. A lot of smuggling no doubt, and dirty dealing inside the country on food and other items but that's likely to be more organised groups, quite possibly with some support from those in positions of power/influence. Much would depend on what the government does when such cases come to light. Does it seek to suppress details or make them public and punish the guilty regardless of their wealth and connections?
If the neutrals are supplying food from the considerable stockpiles of the time as aid rather than sales that would probably take some of the sting out of the bad feeling at their desertion of Britain and its allies.
Given the timescale I doubt there would be much scope for new programmes being produced although you could see a lot of repeats of old classics to try and boost morale. Also probably a shift to a more national viewpoint and pride in past achievements. Future programmes with the Doctor for instance are probably going to have less faffing about and questions of always finding peaceful settlements to problems/disputes and some action fighting. The Darleks are likely to be even more present in any episodes produced during the actual war or shortly afterwards.
Well the continent is the most (reletevely speaking naturaly) peacefull developed place in the plantet at the moment, and it's only at 33 km from Dover, so it will be a pretty tempting target, expecially with the rationing, air and commando raid and the use of chemical weapons; not considering the already presence of refugee from the UK at the moment at least in North France Sure the channel zone is very risky, but fear, hunger and desperation are pretty much very strong motivator
Well, there is an humanitarian relief attempt for Norht America big enough that the Soviets protested, so i expect that also the rest of Europe will get a lot or at least whatever get spared, the problem of the UK is that the european part of the relief program will be needed to be shared with Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Norway and naturally port facilities, food depot and ships will be a prime target for the Soviets is they want pound Great Britain in submission, plus in case like this the real big cost is not the merchandise itself but the transport due to the situation.
The EEC even if
Luke
Yes there is plenty of options for people to escape to the continent and I expect a lot of wealthy people especially will hightail it to France. The reason I said I don't see much scope for people smuggling is that I think even Thatcher would realise the advantage of removing as many people not needed for the war effort, especially children, as possible to the continent, especially since its so close. Something like the 1939-40 evacuation of children from the cities to the countryside to escape the expected bombing attacks. This could be done fairly rapidly and would move a lot of the vulnerable to France and the Low Countries using the many ferries, say flying French [or other] foreign flags and marked with Red Crosses and with the Soviets informed this is going on and not to attack them. Possibly also escorted by neutral fleets. Possibly also a fair number of elderly and other vulnerable people. This could be done on humanitarian grounds and would ease the transport problems for foodstuff and the like. Depending of course on the willingness and capacity of the neutrals to take them but it would cause a bit of an upset refusing to take children and elderly from a war zone. - I should have made clear in my previous post I was thinking of such a programme but forgot, apologies.
Getting food across the channel and from there to Ireland shouldn't be too great a problem given the distance and Iberia is connected by land so rail transport can handle most of that. Norway possibly by food sent to Sweden and then overland. Of course once in combatant territory their vulnerable to Soviet air/missile attack but the actual movement of stuff in a modern high technology region isn't a great problem.
Since N America is the largest producer of food surpluses in the world and most of the agricultural regions have been largely untouched, other than by the disruption due to moblishing onto a war footing and occasional fall-out in some areas I suspect the problem there won't be food but distribution with the transport system disrupted by attacks and many millions fleeing the invasion resulting in a large internal refugee population. Getting food shipments across a bitterly contested Atlantic would be very difficult, even if you tried doing small shipments by air, which wouldn't be practical.
Your post ended in a fragment of a sentence so assuming it was cut off?
Steve
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 26, 2018 12:05:32 GMT
Well the continent is the most (reletevely speaking naturaly) peacefull developed place in the plantet at the moment, and it's only at 33 km from Dover, so it will be a pretty tempting target, expecially with the rationing, air and commando raid and the use of chemical weapons; not considering the already presence of refugee from the UK at the moment at least in North France Sure the channel zone is very risky, but fear, hunger and desperation are pretty much very strong motivator
Well, there is an humanitarian relief attempt for Norht America big enough that the Soviets protested, so i expect that also the rest of Europe will get a lot or at least whatever get spared, the problem of the UK is that the european part of the relief program will be needed to be shared with Spain, Ireland, Portugal and Norway and naturally port facilities, food depot and ships will be a prime target for the Soviets is they want pound Great Britain in submission, plus in case like this the real big cost is not the merchandise itself but the transport due to the situation.
The EEC even if
Luke
Yes there is plenty of options for people to escape to the continent and I expect a lot of wealthy people especially will hightail it to France. The reason I said I don't see much scope for people smuggling is that I think even Thatcher would realise the advantage of removing as many people not needed for the war effort, especially children, as possible to the continent, especially since its so close. Something like the 1939-40 evacuation of children from the cities to the countryside to escape the expected bombing attacks. This could be done fairly rapidly and would move a lot of the vulnerable to France and the Low Countries using the many ferries, say flying French [or other] foreign flags and marked with Red Crosses and with the Soviets informed this is going on and not to attack them. Possibly also escorted by neutral fleets. Possibly also a fair number of elderly and other vulnerable people. This could be done on humanitarian grounds and would ease the transport problems for foodstuff and the like. Depending of course on the willingness and capacity of the neutrals to take them but it would cause a bit of an upset refusing to take children and elderly from a war zone. - I should have made clear in my previous post I was thinking of such a programme but forgot, apologies.
Getting food across the channel and from there to Ireland shouldn't be too great a problem given the distance and Iberia is connected by land so rail transport can handle most of that. Norway possibly by food sent to Sweden and then overland. Of course once in combatant territory their vulnerable to Soviet air/missile attack but the actual movement of stuff in a modern high technology region isn't a great problem.
Since N America is the largest producer of food surpluses in the world and most of the agricultural regions have been largely untouched, other than by the disruption due to moblishing onto a war footing and occasional fall-out in some areas I suspect the problem there won't be food but distribution with the transport system disrupted by attacks and many millions fleeing the invasion resulting in a large internal refugee population. Getting food shipments across a bitterly contested Atlantic would be very difficult, even if you tried doing small shipments by air, which wouldn't be practical.
Your post ended in a fragment of a sentence so assuming it was cut off?
Steve
Yes, it was cut off, i want wrote that even if the EEC will want to help every western nation possible, she is strechted pretty thin at the moment; between mobilization due to keep the Soviet at bay, the agricolture and the industrial sector in overdrive to satisfy orders and relief attempt, the oil embargo and commitments in other part of the world to keep things from spread. Already all help towards third world country has been stopped, except Algeria and the Franceafrique for political reason (but probably lessened) to divert all resources to the western fighting nation and to create some stock for a worst case scenario.
For Europe take children and other vulnerable people, while the will exist it will be pretty limited by the capacity as the above paragraph explain, even because Spain and Norway will ask a similar agreement.
Not saying that Bruxelles will refuse to do it, just that the EEC cannot take everyone and this can create an opening for smugglers...type like them know always were are the desperate.
For food, is just that if i was the soviet commander in charge of the various raid i will concentrate on the food delivery, deposit and distribution at this stage.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 26, 2018 13:42:25 GMT
(271)December 1984: Britain Those who lived through the winter of 1984-85 would said afterwards that Britain starved during that period. That wasn’t true. There were food shortages due to the war and problems with the bureaucracy of rationing, yet the country didn’t starve in reality. There was a lot of hunger and this brought discontent & expressed rage. People weren’t getting enough food to satisfy them and demanded more. If it wasn’t given, they tried to take it. The Minister for Rationing, Tom King, who reported direct to the Prime Minister and the Cabinet Office rather than through a department of state (i.e. the Department of Agriculture or the Home Office), was the most unpopular man in the country… the most unpopular woman being the PM herself. King was doing his best in a difficult job but that didn’t matter to those who stole and rioted. He held onto his post and in many ways that was because no one else in government wanted the job at a time like this. While enough food per official guidelines was issued per person nationwide via the rationing system – though with frequent cock-ups occurring in-places –, for those who received that ration, they wanted more. It didn’t matter that the government said that that was enough, more was demanded! There was more available too. A barrier stock was being built, a small amount of extras in case the issue with shipping got even worse than it already was. ‘Starving’ Britons turned to the black market where criminals operated supplying more food as well as unavailable goodies too. There were some who made plenty of money from stolen goods sold onwards to those in need. Others weren’t so lucky. They were caught, arrested and their wares taken from them. Court sentences were harsh with lengthy prison terms due to those caught. There were some criminals who sought to supply the black marketers, men with guns who raided food warehouses. In a country hit by Soviet Spetsnaz attacks, attempts at armed robberies on places guarded by either police with guns or home defence soldiers was only for the very brave or the very foolish. Ambushing food convoys on the move, as they went to went from depots to distribution points, was not as difficult yet still no easy feat itself. At those distribution points, where local council officials dealt with people at the sharp end of national rationing, there were few attempts at armed robberies of anything like that. Policemen were present inside and outside of them as trouble from them spread. Shouts, pleas and tears were present among those who queued for certain food items which they couldn’t get from shops where there were a lot of empty shelves. It was those with certain needs who went to these places: those with dietary complications, special religious requirements and disabilities. Stealing from these people happened a lot by other criminals though at the same time, people within the queues, often family members of those waiting, would verbally or physically abuse the staff. Riots would erupt stemming from arguments at such places with the police overwhelmed by weight of numbers, the staff fleeing and the sacking of such facilities by crowds acting like hordes of raiders from the Middle Ages. The food issue led to a widespread feeling nationwide of no longer giving a damn about the war. Who cared about fighting far way, off in America and China and out at sea, when everyone was starving hungry? Censored newspapers and the radio & television news spoke of fighting in these places and repeated the government line of national unity and that all Britons were in this together etc etc. That message had been given for months now. Initial patriotic fever had been strong when the war started and Britain was attacked like it was yet it had never been complete: not everyone had been instantly behind the war. Those detained for the public good might have been those with the biggest mouths and a public profile, but for the man and woman in the street who had a complaint about the war – the millions of them who did – locking them up too was hardly feasible. Anti-war feeling rose despite all efforts to stop it. If the country hadn’t been so hungry, even if it wasn’t but the weather was better without the cold and dark days, then the people might have cared more about the war than they did by December. They didn’t though. One member of the cabinet suggested to his colleagues that things might have been different if Britain itself had been invaded. Attacked from the air with fighting in its nearby seas as well as commando raids, the country hadn’t been properly invaded like others in the Allies. Comparisons were made to Spain where there were reports of anti-war feelings running high; this stood in contrast to the invaded United States as well as Norway too. That might or might not have been true. Either way, it didn’t matter. The British people had had enough of this war. Serious violence had not yet come to the anti-war movement as the security services had been effective in rounding up leaders ahead of time – a gross infringement of civil liberties in peacetime; transition to war powers meant this was all legal – but new leaders were going to emerge soon enough. The government would have loved to head that off but had no idea how. Unless of course they wished to allow for the Soviets to invade! A national government was still in-place within Britain. Serious internal disagreement within that wider group and then the narrower War Cabinet occurred frequently as there were bitter divides with transcended ordinary politics. They rowed over internal matters to do with the manner in which the country was being run while at war and also external concerns. The Soviets had repeatedly attacked the country with what regarded as near-impunity. They had struck at mainland Britain over and over again, killing thousands. There had been conventional attacks and also the use of chemical weapons. It was said that these attacks had gone unanswered. There were calls for the Soviets to be hit on their home soil just as Britain had been. The Americans were making attacks on the Soviet Union, so why couldn’t Britain? That secret Vulcan strike against Moscow, aborted when the aircraft were over Scandinavia, wasn’t something that was shared beyond the War Cabinet. British forces were fighting in the seas and skies around the country. There was also land combat in Norway and first up in Alaska before the small British detachment there moved down with the Canadians to join the fight in Colorado come the New Year. More was demanded though. The government was pressured to have British ground forces acting to influence the outcome of the war rather than sitting at home and – it was said – doing nothing. The British Army was still building its strength up though, ready to hold its own on the modern battlefield against whatever the Soviets might throw their way. Where that battlefield would be was the only question. Those who called for the soldiers to go off and fight couldn’t give an answer there: nor could the government. Tensions between Western Europe led by France and the Soviets on the other hand were only increasing. There also remained a notion to send the British Army to the fight in the United States, sending several heavy divisions rather than a small brigade, though nothing was definite on that. The British Army could end up back in West Germany or it might go to Texas: who knew? To the critics, Thatcher and the War Cabinet sat twiddling their thumbs while all around them the world burned. Unfair that was, a total lie really, but it was said louder and louder. In another theatre of warfare, that of the intelligence war, Britain remained busy. The Secret Intelligence Service – MI-6 – wouldn’t go anywhere near nor listen to anything that supposed defector named Peppermint that the Americans had their hands on could say, though there remained extremely close liaison with ‘the cousins’ across the ocean when it came to other matters. NISS was still being established and MI-6 had a small team over in America already set up to work with them. More MI-6 liaison staff were at Fort Meade in Maryland (it had received a strong dose of radiation from the DC strikes though the worse of that was back in late September / early October) where the National Security Agency was located. The NSA hadn’t been subsumed into the new NISS. This had upset some but pleased others. The British intelligence officers at Fort Meade were among the latter. Too much merging of the US Intelligence Community worried the British with the concern over them all reporting to one chief… it also would give those politicians back on their side of the ocean too many ideas about doing the same in Britain. Intelligence work conducted from the United States was done with the Americans under their lead. Elsewhere in the world, where MI-6 acted, it did so alone or with other allies. The CIA’s issues had opened up avenues for the Soviets that the British had scrambled to cover. Other members of the Five Eyes – Australia, Canada and New Zealand among Britain and America; all the Anglo-sphere countries – helped out where they could though MI-6 was still feeling the strain. Soviet diplomats and spies were active all over the world, threatening Britain’s interests and that of the wider Allied cause. Victories were won but defeats came too. People were the casualties of these clashes. If was often the case that in some lonely and unpleasant place, far from Britain’s shores, that MI-6’s casualties came where either their officers or third-party locals ended up killed with their ends not being easy. MI-6 got its licks in too, not playing by Queensbury Rules in any way. The global dirty intelligence war had no end in sight, just like the worldwide conventional fight. Good update James, and congratulations on 50,000 views on the timeline. |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Oct 26, 2018 17:33:27 GMT
Luke
Yes there is plenty of options for people to escape to the continent and I expect a lot of wealthy people especially will hightail it to France. The reason I said I don't see much scope for people smuggling is that I think even Thatcher would realise the advantage of removing as many people not needed for the war effort, especially children, as possible to the continent, especially since its so close. Something like the 1939-40 evacuation of children from the cities to the countryside to escape the expected bombing attacks. This could be done fairly rapidly and would move a lot of the vulnerable to France and the Low Countries using the many ferries, say flying French [or other] foreign flags and marked with Red Crosses and with the Soviets informed this is going on and not to attack them. Possibly also escorted by neutral fleets. Possibly also a fair number of elderly and other vulnerable people. This could be done on humanitarian grounds and would ease the transport problems for foodstuff and the like. Depending of course on the willingness and capacity of the neutrals to take them but it would cause a bit of an upset refusing to take children and elderly from a war zone. - I should have made clear in my previous post I was thinking of such a programme but forgot, apologies.
Getting food across the channel and from there to Ireland shouldn't be too great a problem given the distance and Iberia is connected by land so rail transport can handle most of that. Norway possibly by food sent to Sweden and then overland. Of course once in combatant territory their vulnerable to Soviet air/missile attack but the actual movement of stuff in a modern high technology region isn't a great problem.
Since N America is the largest producer of food surpluses in the world and most of the agricultural regions have been largely untouched, other than by the disruption due to moblishing onto a war footing and occasional fall-out in some areas I suspect the problem there won't be food but distribution with the transport system disrupted by attacks and many millions fleeing the invasion resulting in a large internal refugee population. Getting food shipments across a bitterly contested Atlantic would be very difficult, even if you tried doing small shipments by air, which wouldn't be practical.
Your post ended in a fragment of a sentence so assuming it was cut off?
Steve
Yes, it was cut off, i want wrote that even if the EEC will want to help every western nation possible, she is strechted pretty thin at the moment; between mobilization due to keep the Soviet at bay, the agricolture and the industrial sector in overdrive to satisfy orders and relief attempt, the oil embargo and commitments in other part of the world to keep things from spread. Already all help towards third world country has been stopped, except Algeria and the Franceafrique for political reason (but probably lessened) to divert all resources to the western fighting nation and to create some stock for a worst case scenario.
For Europe take children and other vulnerable people, while the will exist it will be pretty limited by the capacity as the above paragraph explain, even because Spain and Norway will ask a similar agreement.
Not saying that Bruxelles will refuse to do it, just that the EEC cannot take everyone and this can create an opening for smugglers...type like them know always were are the desperate.
For food, is just that if i was the soviet commander in charge of the various raid i will concentrate on the food delivery, deposit and distribution at this stage.
The oil would be the main thing. The food mountains were pretty huge at this point and a new set of crops were harvested before the war started.
I'm not sure the capacity of the cross channel ferries at the time and many people may be unwilling to let family members leave, at least before the heavy bombing/missile attacks start. However a couple of million should be no great problem given the wealth and resources of the neutrals and that would take some strain off the NATO and allied nations both materially and in terms of easing the minds of families. A lot of this might be practical on an individual basis although its a lot easier to get things set up with government support.
People trafficking is only really an issue if the neutrals are seeking to block people moving out of the war zones. Or possibly to stop volunteers heading to help the combatants as that could also be a factor by now.
At this point there are probably few hidden Soviet terrorist groups still present by now and I would suspect that the Soviet air force, even in the main target area of the UK/Ireland have much higher priority targets with strong resistance to attacks still occurring. Especially since being military trained their probably still thinking of blocking the build up of military forces and production.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Oct 26, 2018 21:37:20 GMT
Thank you very much. Oh right, seem that the UK it's not in a good place...at least in WWII there were the sensation to fight back, here? Seem that the Soviets can do everything without consequences (sure it's not true, but this is what the man and woman in the street will feel). Frankly i expect that the British goverment will ask the rest of the continent to rise the level of relief (expecially food) and it's very probable that whatever food can be spared will be destinated to the British Island (that it arrive at destination is another matter). I expect that while the channel zone is dangerous there will be a lot of traffic, at least in term of small boat, as the usual suspect will try to bring food and other goods from the continent to the UK and to resell at exorbitant price (yes it's very dangerous, but historically had never stopped the greedy one) and naturally there will be the scum that will deal with another type of merchandise aka people. I know it's silly, but i'm curious about how Doctor WHO and other popular entertainment will look in this period It is a difficult time for the country, getting blasted and with that lack of visible hitting back. The war effects ordinary people and after a while they get tired of it all. Food is coming over. Things have happened in the Channel and the North Sea though it is still coming. These are government efforts from friends but who also want paying now or in the future. Criminals are active though doing things in bulk is increasingly difficult as the government wants to see that stop. I'm not sure. Doctor Who isn't my thing! Government controlled media will probably be showing reruns of old shops and specials of popular entertainment. Nothing dark, nothing serious: all to try to keep the country's mood up. James Would it actually be that bad? Thatcherism and the related abandonment of a sense of society and national identity hadn't sunk so deep by this date and there was still a sense of social cohesion in many areas, plus a fair number of older people who would remember the previous war, when again although there were air attacks and a threat of invasion, although not an actual occurrence. Also if there was a fair ration you might actually see some of the poorer elements better off as they might get a decent level of food, at least if it followed WWII practices. You might have problems with questions of fairness as I suspect at the top there would be a lot of corruption and the government probably having to hide at least some of this to avoid too much unrest and unpopularity. Also with the crisis of war a lot of the people made unemployed in the early 80's OTL are likely to get more chance of a decent job. [At least unless the government foul it up by seeking to force people into underpaid work, which is always a potential problem with Thatcher and her cronies.
Was the stupid attack on Moscow actually called off? I thought you had it actually go ahead and the aircrews getting slaughtered? Or is that a modification since then?
I think at least at 1st there would be a strong sense of national unity, especially if a more moderate national government was organised. You would have hard-liners, like Scargill on the left and much of the pre-war cabinet and their supporters on the right but in the situation of a dire external threat unless the government were really stupid they would be largely sidelined. [Actually your more probable to have unrest in the US because it doesn't really have even historical experiences of an invasion of any magnitude to prompt a sense of national unity].
Steve
Its a depression thing. There is no mood for revolution but at this point in the war, there is war weariness and enough is enough. The restrictions have upset people. The Vulcans going to Moscow was cancelled midway through when Soviet interceptors got at some and the others turned back. So they returned as per the plan. I haven't changed it. The national mood will probably get better come the new year though for now the 'I do not care anymore' attitude is there. Public morale has sunk in previous wars but Britain still fought on. That is how I see things with this. The intelligence war is going to get dirty. Dirty beyond the scale of Helicopter assisted flying nuns dirty. I wonder how the Press will react to stories of British agents torturing and murdering enemy agents? It won't matter to some that the Soviets and her allies are doing the same or worse, "we're British DAMMIT, we don't do these things". On top of that, what effect will it have on those officers post war? Wartime censorship then probably an extension to the 30-year rule afterwards will try to cover all this up. Word will get out though, if not soon afterwards then in the future. And there will be outrage indeed. 'Why didn't we fight with one hand, hell two hands, tied behind our back in a war for national survival?' Probably not very good. I can't imagine that those involved, even not directly but with knowledge, will all give the stiff upper lip treatment to it all. Good update James, and congratulations on 50,000 views on the timeline. That you, more to come. Jeez, that is rather a lot. |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Oct 26, 2018 21:42:01 GMT
(272)
December 1984: Scandinavia
HMS Tiger, the wartime-reactivated cruiser, could have been useful in the North Atlantic when dealing with those two Soviet convoys. The small task group formed around her would have been useful too. The Tiger’s big guns might have not got close enough to those cargo ships, but the many helicopters which flew from her armed with anti-ship missiles would had ‘fun’ if used in that fight. The destroyer and two frigates operating alongside the cruiser all had their own mounted anti-ship missiles as well as helicopters with those too. However, the Tiger had been sent northwards into empty seas where fewer Soviet ships could be found. Their movement out into the open ocean when the Royal Navy conducted a raid against occupied coastal Norway left the way ahead for the Tiger.
The four warships, moving fast through the dark early one morning mid-December, entered the Forhavet which was a bay where the waters of the Trondheim Fjord emptied into the Norwegian Sea. Going really deep, following the fjord, would have been suicidal. There were many coastal targets which the Royal Navy would have like to have blasted with sudden naval power yet there was major concern over minefields and also the ability of the Soviets to get aircraft into the sky to attack the warships. A quick raid was planned, one to strike and then race back out to the open sea. Orland was their lone target. That NATO-built airbase on the Norwegian coast that the Soviets had in their hands was suddenly taken under fire by the guns of the Tiger. Six-inch shells smashed into the facility, guided in by SBS spotters on the ground. Fireballs erupted when fuel tanks were hit – it wasn’t as if the Royal Navy didn’t have access to intelligence as to where they could be found – and there were wrecks of aircraft made. The runways were hit though there was an expectation that soon enough they would be patched up. However, they would be closed to flight operations for now and while the British were escaping. To add to the gunfire, the Tiger had one of her helicopters (an older Wessex taken from a training unit) in the sky and from there a pair AS.12 heavyweight missiles were fired at two of the hangars in which the Soviets had aircraft. Before either of them could strike home, an unseen missileman launched a SAM upwards at the Wessex. The SBS team were supposed to have taken care of that threat, shooting such people with their snipers, but they couldn’t see him. The helicopter dodged the SAM by dropping like a stone, going straight down very fast, and would escape. Its own missiles never hit their targets though for they were visually-guided with trailing command wires. There had been the hope that the AS.12s could smash through the blast-proof hangar doors to get inside the hangars because the missiles had an armour-piercing warhead but that wasn’t to be. Disappointed at the failure, yet glad to be alive, the Wessex returned to Tiger. There were other helicopters in the sky too. The frigate HMS Ajax had launched a smaller Wasp helicopter while the Tiger was shelling Orland to guard against an attack on the warships by Soviet surface forces of their own and two targets were identified rushing out of the Trondheim Fjord. This time more AS.12 missiles had success and one of them hit each fast attack boat to put a stop to them. Tiger fired more shells afterwards, carrying on blasting Orland, though the game was now up. Orders were given for the Royal Navy to turn tail and head back out to sea.
A week later, the Tiger and her cohorts returned to the Norwegian coast. Norwegian special forces, numbers short after many wartime losses, were still active and they had men near to the coastal town of Holm much further north. There was a ferry terminal there – just for one boat at a time – which the Soviets had in their hands since captured right at the beginning of the war. The coastal highway ran via Holm and other places like it with vehicles ferries all along its length, the majority of those destroyed either by sabotage or in direct strikes since the war started. The link between Holm and Vennesund was held at both ends with the ferry being used by the Soviets for movement of supplies between their forces. These were well defended but the Norwegians were inside and communications with them secure. The Royal Navy waited for some more bad weather, especially which would affect those on the ground, and then moved forward for another pre-dawn attack. Tiger and her escort the destroyer HMS Glamorgan would handle Holm while Vennesund would be attacked by helicopters. Another in-out, quick raid it was. The cruiser’s big guns were joined by the pair of twin-barrelled four-&-half inch guns from the destroyer in smashing up the terminal at Holm and sinking the lone ferry found there; in addition, more shells were fired at identified inland military targets that the special forces team had their eyes on. At Vennesund, the ferry terminal was located by the fast-moving helicopters who had to dodge fire from anti-aircraft guns. The terrain was used well by the pilots to hide themselves and they made pop-up attacks with AS.12s again, blasting apart anything of value there for the occupier… all the while hoping that civilians would be clear. They were then heading back to the warships from which they came. One of the helicopter crews witnessed a big missile racing above the waves and broadcast a warning. That alert came just in time for the Royal Navy. The Glamorgan was hit by the P-15M anti-ship missile (better known by its NATO codename SS-N-2 Styx) despite several attempts to shot it down but the damage done was minimal. It struck the destroyer in her stern, where her flight-deck was and didn’t cause enough damage to threaten the integrity of the ship. Damage control parties were ready and the hangar was empty of its helicopter plus sailors. Five men were still killed aboard yet it all could have been far worse. Wounded but alive, the Glamorgan joined the Tiger and the others in heading out to sea afterwards.
Following two raids in eight days, the second on Christmas Eve, saw the Soviets throw everything at getting the Tiger the next time she made a coastal strike. A sinking of the cruiser with hundreds of men aboard would be a big blow for the British and one which propaganda would trumpet as ‘another defeat for England’. Aircraft, helicopters, many of the flotilla of smaller warships off the Norwegian coast, submarines and scouting teams dispatched to offshore islands were all employed in the mission to spot the Tiger the next time she came back and if they couldn’t sink her then the missiles being moved about inland – more Styxs – would hopefully do the job. A lot of effort was spent and a lot of time used in this. It brought casualties for the Soviets where accidents occurred to helicopters and boats moving about in some horrible winter weather. Norwegian commandos plus partisans from the Home Guard – the latter were men who had their weapons at home and had gone guerrilla into the wilderness at the outbreak of such a bitter war as the one they fought – struck at them while they were moving about getting ready for the Tiger to show up anywhere from the Trondheim Fjord to the Lofoten Islands. However, the Royal Navy wasn’t coming back for another go, not this year anyway. That hadn’t been planned nor would it with all of that Soviet activity. It was watched and observed though because eventually there would be a return. There was a good chance that when the Tiger did return, it would be supporting a counter-invasion at some point, not raiding again. The cruiser and the small task group based around her was busy in the Norwegian Sea. They engaged a lone Soviet Navy corvette with the other frigate, HMS Battleaxe, unleashing a pair of Exocets to kill it and also unsuccessfully hunted for a submarine detected nearby too. One of the Lynx helicopters with the Battleaxe was unfortunately lost though, the victim of pilot error during an overwater flight during night time. Another engagement was sought with a destroyer in the distance though it was beyond reach… it also ran, something unexpected from the Soviets due to previous actions but done this time. The Royal Navy warships would return to Scotland a few days into the New Year.
Over the border to the east, across in Sweden, war had not come to the Norway’s neighbour. Norwegians suffered under partial occupation and the wider ravages of war but Swedes did not. There had been Norwegian refugees who had come over the border. They came from occupied areas in the north though also from the south of the country too. Swedish police, supported by the military, were on the border and let refugees in though there was the grave concern over Soviet spies moving among them as well as Spetsnaz crossing at other points. Finland also bordered Sweden too. The Finns weren’t at war with anyone though they were being dominated by the Soviets who had established a presence within their country. ‘Friendly relations at a time of danger’, it was called in Finland: the Swedes regarded Soviet fighters flying from Finnish airfields and troop movements through Laapland into Norway as a partial occupation. The Finns had been subject to the type of intimidation and open threats that Sweden had to at the beginning of the war by the Soviets and caved in to those. Sweden had not. Having the Soviet Union as a (sort-of) neighbour wasn’t akin to living near the local bully. Rather it was just like having the town psycho set up home two houses down. The Soviets picked fights and turned on those it lashed out against accusing them of starting the trouble while promising what would be a bloodbath at the end of it. Then they made you say sorry, in public, and make an indemnity too. Trying to placate them was pointless: the Swedes knew this and considered the Finns foolish for believing they could carry on walking the tightrope they were without taking quite the horrible fall. The situation in Helsinki was more complicated than it looked to the Swedes from outside who told the Finns to stand up for themselves and their sovereignty though. What was feared in Stockholm was that they would be next, thus why they tried to get the Finns to push back. No one was listening in Helsinki. In Stockholm, the Soviets were attempting to get the Swedish Government to listen to them and accede to what they called ‘reasonable requests’.
Prime Minister Olaf Palme carried on his policy since September of refusing. Swedish airspace was closed to military aircraft of any other nation apart from Sweden and intruders would be engaged. That was the same with its offshore sea-lanes too. Road and rail links through Sweden, linking Finland and Norway either side, were closed to military traffic of any kind as well. This was a position when it came to any outside nation, Palme had his diplomats tell the Soviets, and it was one which would continue to be enforced as it already had been. Soviet pilots who had landed in Sweden and sailors from a shipwreck in the Gulf of Bothnia would continue to be interned along with any and all military equipment. None of this was going to change. Palme and the foreign policy which he led Sweden along with other matters might not have been very popular elsewhere in the world but on this, Sweden held a firm stance that almost everyone could respect.
The Soviets didn’t. They upped the pressure through December. The demands on Sweden to do as the Soviet Union wished increased. The same ‘reasonable requests’ were made about airspace and overland access as well as the return of military internees. What increased was the demand that the Swedes release their major naval and naval air presence over the Danish Straits, removing their forces from their side of the waters there which connected the Baltic Sea with the open ocean beyond. In those waters, with the Danes alongside them on the other side, the Swedes treated those waters like their airspace: they wouldn’t allow military vessels to pass through. Send your aircraft and ships home, the Soviets asked the Swedes to do. No, Palme repeated, no. There were many Soviet ships waiting to pass through if either the Swedes or the Danes – preferably both in Moscow’s eyes – went home. Fighting their way through was something that would have to be done to get the Baltic Fleet out in the North Sea if neither Stockholm nor Copenhagen would back down. Cooperation between those capitals on mutual defence was important and working where the two of them blocked the straits with a physical presence plus minefields which they had laid. The Swedes would have liked to have seen Finland join them, all working together if possible to stay out of the war, but Helsinki had taken a different route.
Palme’s ambassador in Moscow was called upon to see the Soviet foreign minister. An ultimatum was given, one finished with an open threat to force open the Danish Straits. No longer was there any pretence of reasonable behaviour and polite requests. Sweden would do as the Soviet Union wanted or else. The country, desperate to stay neutral, was on a collision course for war.
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Hopefully the Soviets can't do a mission like this again and their navy won't get home in any numbers. However at least some of the two convoys will get through unless the USAF can really hit them. which will however be costly even attempting. Alternatively their going to have to defeat those units and their equipment on the ground.
