jfoxx
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Post by jfoxx on Oct 23, 2018 16:36:09 GMT
After that last update I think the time for “nukes at sea” is nigh.
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crackpot
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Post by crackpot on Oct 23, 2018 17:10:15 GMT
After that last update I think the time for “nukes at sea” is nigh. I suppose it depends on how large those convoys are/how much remains of the convoys. If the equation is Conquest vs Nuclear Escalation... then I hope the sailors packed their sunscreen. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 23, 2018 19:10:27 GMT
James
A very good question as to how those two convoys have got so far. Can the US - and by this stage its only them - stop or seriously reduce those convoys? Well 1st the question is how much do they know about them?  I know your hinted that the convoy taking the S Atlantic route is likely to run into problems but not sure how those others have got across the N Atlantic. True the Soviets have bases at Iceland and in the Azores but it would be hoped that the USN would be seeking to put a serious lock on movement across the Atlantic. Especially of Soviet reinforcements for the invasion of the US.
Sounds like there's going to be some details on actions in the next chapter and looking forward to it. 
Steve
By the time the two convoys reach the Caribbean, only the Americans can get at them. They are going around the other side of Cuba too, stretching the distance away from the US mainland before swinging into Texas. The US knows all about them after fighting each. Ah, yes, we are coming to how they have achieved this and what has happened on the way indeed. the American fleet take losses at the beginning of the war, I wondering if the remaining carrier groups are out of position or did the soviet navy kill or mission kill the naval assets in the northern sea area to get the convoys into north American waters. It will be bits of all of that. Losses taken to the Americans and the Soviets forcing passage. Though also outside events too. I hope you enjoy how this plays out.
Sorry, nearly overlooks this. It could be that this is the case, especially since some under-strength probes into Norweign Sea have proved rather costly failures the allies haven't managed to keep a good eye on events in the N Atlantic in time to move forces to intercept. Britain has been left without substantial support and the loss of northern Norway and Iceland means forward bases for deteching Soviet movements have been lost. Even so if forces got through the GIUK gap they still have to cross the entire Atlantic and their heading for the Caribbean rather than N America itself so have to swing around the latter to some degree, increasing the distance to be traveled. Alternatively those convoys might have got through the Med, although this seems unlikely with Iberia being united in the allied camp. [Although I would have thought that satellites would be very useful here either way.]
Be interesting to see what James has thought up but if those two convoys have got so far across the Atlantic without being substantially attacked, or even possibly detected, then things are going really wrong for the USN and USAF. Unless their planning a major couple of ambushes or there has already been hard fighting.
The RN and US Navy have been beaten up in that earlier fighting: the last time they moved forward, the Americans lost two carriers in one hell of a naval disaster. The Soviet forward basing really is an issue indeed. The crossing is all about moving all over the place, making it longer for them too. They will be detected and attack moves will be made but... we'll have to see. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 23, 2018 19:12:21 GMT
After that last update I think the time for “nukes at sea” is nigh. That would certainly do the job indeed. I suppose it depends on how large those convoys are/how much remains of the convoys. If the equation is Conquest vs Nuclear Escalation... then I hope the sailors packed their sunscreen. Factor 5000 sunscreen would be needed! |
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 23, 2018 19:15:02 GMT
Chapter Eighteen – The Bitterest of Winters
(270a)
December 1984: The Atlantic
When the war had started back in the middle of September, the navies of the Allies had raced to sea in a hurry. American, British, Canadian, Norwegian, Portuguese and Spanish ships and submarines had flooded the waters of the Atlantic and its a-joining seas to go to battle. Some vessels had sailed in an unprepared state, especially for anything more than limited action. There had come instances of extreme combat and many losses for some though for a good while many others didn’t see any action at all for some time. They got into the fight in the end. Maintaining this early naval posture had been impossible and also made ill-sense from a strategic point of view. Rotation came with vessels returning home and there were others from the reserves, even taken out of mothballs, who went to sea. Ships not lost in combat needed to spend time in port where patch-ups were done or major work undertaken; with some, the decision would be taken that the whole vessel was a loss and nothing more could be done. The high tempo of operations on vessels but also the crews took their toll. There was no time for rest when at sea and the tours of duty were long and extremely dangerous. Shore leave was short because their ships were needed back at sea again. Ongoing maintenance work which should have been done while in port yet could be completed while underway took place when at sea. Tankers, supply ships and helicopters were used to keep the navies at sea. This extended operations even further, which on the face of it was excellent for operational capability yet in reality put an even greater strain on those at the working end of near-continuous duties at sea. These navies had all conducted pre-war training on a national and multi-national NATO level with an emphasis on long at-sea deployments. Training and reality were two different things, especially in the face of enemy attacks. Exercises came to an end too. When the deployment would come to a stop was known about beforehand. That wasn’t the case with the Third Battle of the Atlantic. There was the outside chance that it could at any moment with peace breaking out. However, that was realised as being rather unlikely. It was a fight that was going to go on and on for some time.
Men and ships were reaching breaking point through November. Naval commanders could point to several instances where losses had occurred due to either equipment failure which could have been avoided with proper time for maintenance or where human effort brought on by tiredness had caused this. The weather got worse, adding to the general mood for a slowdown of Allied naval operations through December. The winter had come with a vengeance through the northern half of the ocean. There were debates among military chiefs as to whether a slowdown at a time like this was the best idea but the admirals won out. They had to rest much of their navies. Otherwise, the losses would only increase. Their operational tempo was unsustainable no matter how many small measures had recently been taken to ease some issues. Generals countered that with fewer ships at sea the Soviets could take the opportunity to win the war though the admirals only had to point to all of that bad weather and also how the slowdown with military operations on land was taking place, done for the same reasons as was needed at sea. The North Atlantic wasn’t going to be empty, open for the Soviets to use at their leisure during December. There would still be ships and submarines at sea, just not as many of them as before. Air support from both sides of the ocean and from what aviation platforms remained at sea would be present too. In addition, many of the ships withdrawn from at-sea frontline deployment could get underway again if necessary. Discussion were had on what the Soviets would do. If they didn’t find out through intelligence means, it was believed that they would be able to make an educated guess that the Allied navies would be doing this. Their admirals weren’t stupid. The too had been suffering under the same strain as their opponents, all doing so with a smaller navy and with the inbuilt disadvantages of strategic geography that they had where they were unable to get much of their navy out into the open seas. They couldn’t match the Allies’ carrier air power nor their overall number of warships yet they did have their strong land-based naval aviation and there had been an increase in operational Soviet submarine numbers beginning towards the end of November: back to the high numbers achieved early on in the war when they had done what their opponents had and surged so many forward. Nonetheless, the Soviets couldn’t maintain their forces at sea for as long as the Allied navies were able to. Their onboard arsenals were small & used up rather fast, Soviet underway replenishment was limited and there were only a few forward bases (all captured facilities) where the ships could make use of. Still, despite those restrictions on the Soviet Navy, enforced by geo-politics yet also the lesser-importance put on a true blue-water navy by the Soviet Union since the country’s birth, they were expected to try to conduct major North Atlantic operations in December. The Allies were waiting for such a move, confident they could handle anything but also aware that whatever might come of that, even a Soviet success, really wouldn’t be the end of the world. A victory would only mean that they wore themselves out even more than they already had, dooming them in the long-run.
There was a US Navy submarine up in the Norwegian Sea. It was on a reconnaissance mission in a high threat environment and reported-in infrequently when there were so many Soviet assets about. It had before reported on the last big convoy sailing from the Kola Peninsula heading for North America via the Denmark Strait and then Azores. No report came about the two convoys which went through the top of the Norwegian Sea in early December. That submarine had been lost with the US Navy unawares. Only after two scheduled reports were missed did it become apparent that it had been destroyed with all hands lost. Allied naval air reconnaissance and neither satellites picked up on the mass of shipping which passed by the northern reaches of occupied Norway and headed towards Iceland. All those ships, warships escorting cargo vessels, couldn’t remain hidden for long though. There were just too many of them. The Allies detected the shipping, seeing only one convoy at first and not sure if they were looking at a major reinforcement for the Iceland garrison. That notion was dismissed when a better look was gotten at the ships along with all of those escorts closer-up. This was another America-bound collection of ships, spotted turning south of Iceland. The other one, the second convoy going behind Iceland, through worse weather than the first, was spotted a few days later: again, it was realised that the Soviets were sending these ships to the war in North America too.
The Allies had the forces to respond, they just had to get them into position after the Soviets had a head-start on them. The Royal Navy prepared a battle-group formed around the carrier HMS Hermes which came out of Plymouth where the ship had been in port due to a major fire last month (not caused by enemy action: just human stupidity) to not take on the Soviets head on but move against them when the Americans and the Canadians brought their own forces into play when all of those ships were out in the open ocean and far from both Iceland and the Azores. The US Navy had the USS Nimitz now in Norfolk – having more work done on her following the patch-up after the missile strikes had been undertaken before in Belfast – and the carrier was unavailable along with the USS Saratoga which was also there undergoing major repairs from earlier battle damage (hers done in the Med.). Two more carriers remained available though: the USS America was at sea mid-Atlantic and the USS Independence had been coming from the South Atlantic planning to make a stop at Mayport in Florida yet instead tasked to go after the mass of Soviet shipping. Submarines moved in first, aiming to shape the battlefield while behind them the carriers and their battlegroups moved into position: aiming to strike all at once from three sides. There were many Soviet warships in escort, a lot in fact (many older vessels), and this included the missile-cruiser Kirov: a ship which had before hurt the Royal Navy and the US Navy gravely… making it a certain, early target when the attacks started. What the Soviets didn’t have was a carrier. Helicopters flew from their ships and there were many air defence missiles but no aircraft carrier was present. Land-based fighters out of Iceland and the Azores couldn’t cover the convoys and while there were all of those missile-bombers at each, they had to be guided towards Allied naval targets by hunters who had to find their prey first.
The Allied navies moved into position as the Soviets came southwards, staying midway between Newfoundland & Bermuda to the west and the British Isles in the east. They sought out bad weather to sail through, each day getting further from the Iceland where the limited air protection for them was based but still some distance away from the Azores. There came a point where the Allies thought that the time was right to make their move. They did so, going into the attack.
to be continued
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 23, 2018 21:18:39 GMT
James Good point on the problems of prolonged combat, especially after the earlier heavy losses and for the RN the relatively small size. Going to cause problems getting forces in place in time and obviously the allies 'fail' again at least for the 1st stage as the convoys reach the Caribbean area. However how much of them are left and in what condition could be important as the US should be able to have another go at that point - although they will have some coverage from LACom [largely Cuban I think] air units in the eastern islands.
One interesting question, if they gather together enough information and think they can get suitable accuracy, is what do the NATO forces target? The navies will probably want to hit as many warships as possible to prevent another such mission and also, by reducing the escort this makes attacks on the convoy easier. On the other hand there is an argument for targeting the convoyed ships if they think they can to stop reinforcements and equipment reaching N America. Even possibly a choice between troops and equipment as neither are much good without the other. Could be an awkward decision depending on what they have available, both in terms of information and forces able to get to the battle. If they can do it the men and equipment are probably more important as the warships can possibly be attacked on the return leg although if forces are insufficient to be confident of doing the damage then targeting the warships could take priority.
If the US works out which way the ships are going they can always try mining some of the approaches. Here the US Captor mines - see Mark_60_CAPTOR, could be handy since they have a significant range due to launching a torpedo. Failing that another wave of attacks on the ports their likely to unload at, although their going to be heavily defended. Don't know how effective the F-117 could be as an advanced guard using anti-radar missiles to weaken the defences before other ships go through. Or possibly the kitchen sink with every a/c the AF and Navy can commit providing cover for a big B-52 raid.
Its a pity that without Reagan the Iowa's haven't been reactivated as - if they might have been ready in time - they could be very handy in a mid-winter rumble in the mid-Atlantic.
Even if the convoy brings a lot of men and equipment through if the Soviet navy and naval air units supporting them take enough damage it might be a Pyrrhic victory for them. The army will have to handle what does arrive.
By the way at the captured US ports how well are the Soviets and their allies operating the equipment and any chance of possibly sabotaging some key equipment. [Not by local workers as I suspect their well out of the way but possibly some special forces. Would be extremely difficult and dangerous but might be worthwhile if it can cause at least a lot of delay. Or if nothing else, presuming the US doesn't want to go nuclear some conventional armed missiles?
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 23, 2018 21:25:53 GMT
THe soviet don't need a blockade, they already control directly and indirectly the ME oil producers and if they don't sell to the EEC they will not sell to Japan. SEA oil production by now is only in the beginning stage, plus with China at war and Vietnam meltdown, they had their hand full on an humanitarian crisis at hom and can't sell to Japan that much oil, except Indonesia, but this also depend on her stance regard the war and how her internal situation is. The problem is also delivery, till Vladivostock the Pacific even if firm in US allies hand was still a war zone with air, naval and submarine attack to ships, plus i doubt that the soviet will have left the Japanese port alone in their attack. While Japan had done work to lowering her dependence to oil and the export market had basically halted, he also fight a war unlike the EEC and it's very resources consuming. Norway and the UK will also being deprived of North Sea oil for some (long) time and rebuild everything will be long and costly as special (and expensive) material was needed to build and mantain the oil drill station due to the harsh weather. The war has been shorter sure, but still pretty destructive and nuclear bomb and chemical weapons has been used pretty extensively and frankly modern economy and infrastructure are much more fragile. Just in the last update we had seen that the New Orleans port had been severerly damaged and also Florida is under attack or more precisely her infrastructure in various commando raid. OTL Los Angeles riot cost 1 billion in damage, OTL 9/11 around 50 billion, Hurricane Katrina 125 billion...and at this stage the USA had suffered more than 10 times that damage and the war continue, plus it's all the indirect financial damage due to the dollar crash and the initial panic stage and the long term consequence of the dollar not being the top currency for sometime Regarding the EU, just because some people think is an hive of wretched scum is not true and regarding lying, threatheing and insult, well you are right...just that i don't have in mind the EU leadership and various goverment in this case but someone else. More specifically in ITTL the only three nation in Europe that can say that have been deserted are Portugal, Norway and the UK and all that will need help to recover...and are still in the war thanks to european help.
You need to check your history. Oil has been important in the region for about a century. Ireland isn't a member of NATO but it is in the EEC so it is also likely to be unhappy. Plus your blinkers are showing again as there is a world beyond Europe.
On the last paragraph your very much channeling your inner Trump so I'll point out your not a god so reality isn't shaped by your will, no matter how much you desire it to be. There has been a lot of lying on all sides but go on thinking that because its the EU its leaders can tell any lie if you wish.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Oct 23, 2018 22:10:07 GMT
Guys, with the greatest of respect, can we please drop the whole EEC thing.
It is not part of my story; I can't recall when such an organisation was last mentioned.
This debate has gone a little too far.
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 23, 2018 22:42:21 GMT
THe soviet don't need a blockade, they already control directly and indirectly the ME oil producers and if they don't sell to the EEC they will not sell to Japan. SEA oil production by now is only in the beginning stage, plus with China at war and Vietnam meltdown, they had their hand full on an humanitarian crisis at hom and can't sell to Japan that much oil, except Indonesia, but this also depend on her stance regard the war and how her internal situation is. The problem is also delivery, till Vladivostock the Pacific even if firm in US allies hand was still a war zone with air, naval and submarine attack to ships, plus i doubt that the soviet will have left the Japanese port alone in their attack. While Japan had done work to lowering her dependence to oil and the export market had basically halted, he also fight a war unlike the EEC and it's very resources consuming. Norway and the UK will also being deprived of North Sea oil for some (long) time and rebuild everything will be long and costly as special (and expensive) material was needed to build and mantain the oil drill station due to the harsh weather. The war has been shorter sure, but still pretty destructive and nuclear bomb and chemical weapons has been used pretty extensively and frankly modern economy and infrastructure are much more fragile. Just in the last update we had seen that the New Orleans port had been severerly damaged and also Florida is under attack or more precisely her infrastructure in various commando raid. OTL Los Angeles riot cost 1 billion in damage, OTL 9/11 around 50 billion, Hurricane Katrina 125 billion...and at this stage the USA had suffered more than 10 times that damage and the war continue, plus it's all the indirect financial damage due to the dollar crash and the initial panic stage and the long term consequence of the dollar not being the top currency for sometime Regarding the EU, just because some people think is an hive of wretched scum is not true and regarding lying, threatheing and insult, well you are right...just that i don't have in mind the EU leadership and various goverment in this case but someone else. More specifically in ITTL the only three nation in Europe that can say that have been deserted are Portugal, Norway and the UK and all that will need help to recover...and are still in the war thanks to european help.
You need to check your history. Oil has been important in the region for about a century. Ireland isn't a member of NATO but it is in the EEC so it is also likely to be unhappy. Plus your blinkers are showing again as there is a world beyond Europe.
On the last paragraph your very much channeling your inner Trump so I'll point out your not a god so reality isn't shaped by your will, no matter how much you desire it to be. There has been a lot of lying on all sides but go on thinking that because its the EU its leaders can tell any lie if you wish.
let's check
Thailand: oil production has started in 1981 with 2000 barrels a day (wikipedia), lot of potential as OTL demonstrated...still the nation is just in the beginning and need to face an huge refugee crisis plus the situation in Cambodia Vietnam: also a producer but not only is a communist nation but is in a state of turmoil due to the destruction of Hanoi Malaysia: sure produce oil and in quantity, still the production is a fraction of now and at least half is for internal consumption Indonesia and Brunei: and here we get the real deal; unfortunely much depend on Suharto stance of the war (aka who decide that will win and need to be sucked up) and the internal situation as Indonesia had always had to deal with separatist movement and at the moment there is insurgency in Timor, Aceh and Papua Guinea...and i doubt that the consequences of the war had greatly improved the situation
Plus, as i said, the Pacific is a war zone and so ships will be target, sunk, attacked, delayed or simply will not go and Japan is under attack and so her port facilities and all this mean that oil (and other supply) delivery and distribution will be disrupted.
Regarding the rest i will not comment due to my desire to not hijack the thread as you had many time said, i will limit myself in saying that i always was civil and never insulted you in this thread so please do the same
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 24, 2018 3:28:54 GMT
Chapter Eighteen – The Bitterest of Winters(270a)December 1984: The Atlantic When the war had started back in the middle of September, the navies of the Allies had raced to sea in a hurry. American, British, Canadian, Norwegian, Portuguese and Spanish ships and submarines had flooded the waters of the Atlantic and its a-joining seas to go to battle. Some vessels had sailed in an unprepared state, especially for anything more than limited action. There had come instances of extreme combat and many losses for some though for a good while many others didn’t see any action at all for some time. They got into the fight in the end. Maintaining this early naval posture had been impossible and also made ill-sense from a strategic point of view. Rotation came with vessels returning home and there were others from the reserves, even taken out of mothballs, who went to sea. Ships not lost in combat needed to spend time in port where patch-ups were done or major work undertaken; with some, the decision would be taken that the whole vessel was a loss and nothing more could be done. The high tempo of operations on vessels but also the crews took their toll. There was no time for rest when at sea and the tours of duty were long and extremely dangerous. Shore leave was short because their ships were needed back at sea again. Ongoing maintenance work which should have been done while in port yet could be completed while underway took place when at sea. Tankers, supply ships and helicopters were used to keep the navies at sea. This extended operations even further, which on the face of it was excellent for operational capability yet in reality put an even greater strain on those at the working end of near-continuous duties at sea. These navies had all conducted pre-war training on a national and multi-national NATO level with an emphasis on long at-sea deployments. Training and reality were two different things, especially in the face of enemy attacks. Exercises came to an end too. When the deployment would come to a stop was known about beforehand. That wasn’t the case with the Third Battle of the Atlantic. There was the outside chance that it could at any moment with peace breaking out. However, that was realised as being rather unlikely. It was a fight that was going to go on and on for some time. Men and ships were reaching breaking point through November. Naval commanders could point to several instances where losses had occurred due to either equipment failure which could have been avoided with proper time for maintenance or where human effort brought on by tiredness had caused this. The weather got worse, adding to the general mood for a slowdown of Allied naval operations through December. The winter had come with a vengeance through the northern half of the ocean. There were debates among military chiefs as to whether a slowdown at a time like this was the best idea but the admirals won out. They had to rest much of their navies. Otherwise, the losses would only increase. Their operational tempo was unsustainable no matter how many small measures had recently been taken to ease some issues. Generals countered that with fewer ships at sea the Soviets could take the opportunity to win the war though the admirals only had to point to all of that bad weather and also how the slowdown with military operations on land was taking place, done for the same reasons as was needed at sea. The North Atlantic wasn’t going to be empty, open for the Soviets to use at their leisure during December. There would still be ships and submarines at sea, just not as many of them as before. Air support from both sides of the ocean and from what aviation platforms remained at sea would be present too. In addition, many of the ships withdrawn from at-sea frontline deployment could get underway again if necessary. Discussion were had on what the Soviets would do. If they didn’t find out through intelligence means, it was believed that they would be able to make an educated guess that the Allied navies would be doing this. Their admirals weren’t stupid. The too had been suffering under the same strain as their opponents, all doing so with a smaller navy and with the inbuilt disadvantages of strategic geography that they had where they were unable to get much of their navy out into the open seas. They couldn’t match the Allies’ carrier air power nor their overall number of warships yet they did have their strong land-based naval aviation and there had been an increase in operational Soviet submarine numbers beginning towards the end of November: back to the high numbers achieved early on in the war when they had done what their opponents had and surged so many forward. Nonetheless, the Soviets couldn’t maintain their forces at sea for as long as the Allied navies were able to. Their onboard arsenals were small & used up rather fast, Soviet underway replenishment was limited and there were only a few forward bases (all captured facilities) where the ships could make use of. Still, despite those restrictions on the Soviet Navy, enforced by geo-politics yet also the lesser-importance put on a true blue-water navy by the Soviet Union since the country’s birth, they were expected to try to conduct major North Atlantic operations in December. The Allies were waiting for such a move, confident they could handle anything but also aware that whatever might come of that, even a Soviet success, really wouldn’t be the end of the world. A victory would only mean that they wore themselves out even more than they already had, dooming them in the long-run. There was a US Navy submarine up in the Norwegian Sea. It was on a reconnaissance mission in a high threat environment and reported-in infrequently when there were so many Soviet assets about. It had before reported on the last big convoy sailing from the Kola Peninsula heading for North America via the Denmark Strait and then Azores. No report came about the two convoys which went through the top of the Norwegian Sea in early December. That submarine had been lost with the US Navy unawares. Only after two scheduled reports were missed did it become apparent that it had been destroyed with all hands lost. Allied naval air reconnaissance and neither satellites picked up on the mass of shipping which passed by the northern reaches of occupied Norway and headed towards Iceland. All those ships, warships escorting cargo vessels, couldn’t remain hidden for long though. There were just too many of them. The Allies detected the shipping, seeing only one convoy at first and not sure if they were looking at a major reinforcement for the Iceland garrison. That notion was dismissed when a better look was gotten at the ships along with all of those escorts closer-up. This was another America-bound collection of ships, spotted turning south of Iceland. The other one, the second convoy going behind Iceland, through worse weather than the first, was spotted a few days later: again, it was realised that the Soviets were sending these ships to the war in North America too. The Allies had the forces to respond, they just had to get them into position after the Soviets had a head-start on them. The Royal Navy prepared a battle-group formed around the carrier HMS Hermes which came out of Plymouth where the ship had been in port due to a major fire last month (not caused by enemy action: just human stupidity) to not take on the Soviets head on but move against them when the Americans and the Canadians brought their own forces into play when all of those ships were out in the open ocean and far from both Iceland and the Azores. The US Navy had the USS Nimitz now in Norfolk – having more work done on her following the patch-up after the missile strikes had been undertaken before in Belfast – and the carrier was unavailable along with the USS Saratoga which was also there undergoing major repairs from earlier battle damage (hers done in the Med.). Two more carriers remained available though: the USS America was at sea mid-Atlantic and the USS Independence had been coming from the South Atlantic planning to make a stop at Mayport in Florida yet instead tasked to go after the mass of Soviet shipping. Submarines moved in first, aiming to shape the battlefield while behind them the carriers and their battlegroups moved into position: aiming to strike all at once from three sides. There were many Soviet warships in escort, a lot in fact (many older vessels), and this included the missile-cruiser Kirov: a ship which had before hurt the Royal Navy and the US Navy gravely… making it a certain, early target when the attacks started. What the Soviets didn’t have was a carrier. Helicopters flew from their ships and there were many air defence missiles but no aircraft carrier was present. Land-based fighters out of Iceland and the Azores couldn’t cover the convoys and while there were all of those missile-bombers at each, they had to be guided towards Allied naval targets by hunters who had to find their prey first. The Allied navies moved into position as the Soviets came southwards, staying midway between Newfoundland & Bermuda to the west and the British Isles in the east. They sought out bad weather to sail through, each day getting further from the Iceland where the limited air protection for them was based but still some distance away from the Azores. There came a point where the Allies thought that the time was right to make their move. They did so, going into the attack. to be continued As always a goof update James. So we are going to see a epic major naval battle, cool. |
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lueck
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Post by lueck on Oct 24, 2018 6:57:28 GMT
james, i could the soviet navy forcing their way past surface ships and sub. . but not carrier groups. however if said groups ended up diverted form their attacks or were forced to defend themselves after the first wave of attacks long enough the. convoys could make to Cuban waters.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 24, 2018 14:48:29 GMT
Thinking about it, if those two convoys don't get through or only with very heavy losses then the Soviet offensive is really struggling. I can see Vorotnikov pushing for a new offensive by the forces already there, possibly in January and it would have a good chance of suffering heavy losses.
At that point, with a lot of the army out of play, the forces in N America looking doomed and an extremely nasty quagmire in China, plus possibly Vorotnikov looking for more people to blame I could see him getting a bad case of blood poisoning. [Lead like other heavy metals can be extremely unhealthy in the blood stream, especially when added at high velocity]. Basically a coup clears out him and his supporters and looks to end the mess.
In that case I could see them making a peace offer including an immediate cease-fire, the surrender of Soviet forces in N America and the Azores - with a requirement that the Geneva Laws apply and a rapid removal of Soviet forces from Norway, Iceland and Korea and an ending of support for communist forces in Korea and Central America. [Basically being willing to ditch their 'allies' to get out of a war which is looking increasingly disastrous. [Also to withdraw from China if Hu manages to prevent any revenge attacks.]
While there would be many Americans who want blood I could see Glenn accepting because it ends the occupation and the wider war quickly and allows recovery to start.
This would leave the Soviets in a fairly decent position. They have lost a lot of men but still have a lot more and while some nukes have hit other than Leningrad their been in the Far East which is of relatively little importance for most Russians. They will still dominate eastern Europe and much of the ME. Also China is removed as any sort of realistic threat and the potential western rival is reduced by the problems of the US in both rebuilding and securing domination of central America and the split between NATO and the neutral nations. There is still some sort of ecological disaster in the Ukraine that is probably still under the radar for most people but the coup leaders could see this position as a decent one and better than seeing their forces in N America destroyed and a prolonged bloodbath in China or even further, possibly large scale nuclear exchanges.
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sandyman
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Post by sandyman on Oct 24, 2018 17:58:54 GMT
Lo e the update and can not wait to see where the battle of the Atlantic goes hopefully in the allies favour one small ask please do not sink Hermes the UK is rather short of carriers even though it’s a tad long in the tooth.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Oct 24, 2018 19:36:35 GMT
James Good point on the problems of prolonged combat, especially after the earlier heavy losses and for the RN the relatively small size. Going to cause problems getting forces in place in time and obviously the allies 'fail' again at least for the 1st stage as the convoys reach the Caribbean area. However how much of them are left and in what condition could be important as the US should be able to have another go at that point - although they will have some coverage from LACom [largely Cuban I think] air units in the eastern islands.
One interesting question, if they gather together enough information and think they can get suitable accuracy, is what do the NATO forces target? The navies will probably want to hit as many warships as possible to prevent another such mission and also, by reducing the escort this makes attacks on the convoy easier. On the other hand there is an argument for targeting the convoyed ships if they think they can to stop reinforcements and equipment reaching N America. Even possibly a choice between troops and equipment as neither are much good without the other. Could be an awkward decision depending on what they have available, both in terms of information and forces able to get to the battle. If they can do it the men and equipment are probably more important as the warships can possibly be attacked on the return leg although if forces are insufficient to be confident of doing the damage then targeting the warships could take priority.
If the US works out which way the ships are going they can always try mining some of the approaches. Here the US Captor mines - see Mark_60_CAPTOR, could be handy since they have a significant range due to launching a torpedo. Failing that another wave of attacks on the ports their likely to unload at, although their going to be heavily defended. Don't know how effective the F-117 could be as an advanced guard using anti-radar missiles to weaken the defences before other ships go through. Or possibly the kitchen sink with every a/c the AF and Navy can commit providing cover for a big B-52 raid.
Its a pity that without Reagan the Iowa's haven't been reactivated as - if they might have been ready in time - they could be very handy in a mid-winter rumble in the mid-Atlantic.
Even if the convoy brings a lot of men and equipment through if the Soviet navy and naval air units supporting them take enough damage it might be a Pyrrhic victory for them. The army will have to handle what does arrive.
By the way at the captured US ports how well are the Soviets and their allies operating the equipment and any chance of possibly sabotaging some key equipment. [Not by local workers as I suspect their well out of the way but possibly some special forces. Would be extremely difficult and dangerous but might be worthwhile if it can cause at least a lot of delay. Or if nothing else, presuming the US doesn't want to go nuclear some conventional armed missiles?
Steve
The rush to sea at the beginning of the war was always going to cause a long term issue and it has. The much-needed slowdown is interrupted though by another rush. Yes, they still have to get to, and unload in, Texas ports (avoiding doing so in Cuba nor Mexico). That targeting issue is key. Cargo ships first or escorts first? Escorts will always be closer and if the time to do one than the other is thought to be available, then it will be the escorts first. Bare in mind that despite protests from generals, the admirals will see an end result with many warships lost and only a few cargo ships sunk as still a win because it can't be done again. Generals will disagree though. Oh, how the Iowa's would have been vital! An Iowa vs the Kirov too would have been a fight worth having! When we come to January in the story, getting those ships in and cargo off, plus sorted out, will not be an easy thing. The US will throw what they can at stopping this, grumbling at the Navy, but having a right serious go. I'll look into the Captors. Air and SF attacks are probably a given because the US Army and USAF will see these convoys in a more important fashion than the US Navy does. As always a goof update James. So we are going to see a epic major naval battle, cool. Thank you. Yep, several all part of one. See below, Admiral. james, i could the soviet navy forcing their way past surface ships and sub. . but not carrier groups. however if said groups ended up diverted form their attacks or were forced to defend themselves after the first wave of attacks long enough the. convoys could make to Cuban waters. That is a very likely occurrence. The carriers mean everything to the Allied navies, and are top of the Soviet target list. Thinking about it, if those two convoys don't get through or only with very heavy losses then the Soviet offensive is really struggling. I can see Vorotnikov pushing for a new offensive by the forces already there, possibly in January and it would have a good chance of suffering heavy losses.
At that point, with a lot of the army out of play, the forces in N America looking doomed and an extremely nasty quagmire in China, plus possibly Vorotnikov looking for more people to blame I could see him getting a bad case of blood poisoning. [Lead like other heavy metals can be extremely unhealthy in the blood stream, especially when added at high velocity]. Basically a coup clears out him and his supporters and looks to end the mess.
In that case I could see them making a peace offer including an immediate cease-fire, the surrender of Soviet forces in N America and the Azores - with a requirement that the Geneva Laws apply and a rapid removal of Soviet forces from Norway, Iceland and Korea and an ending of support for communist forces in Korea and Central America. [Basically being willing to ditch their 'allies' to get out of a war which is looking increasingly disastrous. [Also to withdraw from China if Hu manages to prevent any revenge attacks.]
While there would be many Americans who want blood I could see Glenn accepting because it ends the occupation and the wider war quickly and allows recovery to start.
This would leave the Soviets in a fairly decent position. They have lost a lot of men but still have a lot more and while some nukes have hit other than Leningrad their been in the Far East which is of relatively little importance for most Russians. They will still dominate eastern Europe and much of the ME. Also China is removed as any sort of realistic threat and the potential western rival is reduced by the problems of the US in both rebuilding and securing domination of central America and the split between NATO and the neutral nations. There is still some sort of ecological disaster in the Ukraine that is probably still under the radar for most people but the coup leaders could see this position as a decent one and better than seeing their forces in N America destroyed and a prolonged bloodbath in China or even further, possibly large scale nuclear exchanges.
That is a good sketch scenario of how this war could end. It is really good in fact. It would keep the Soviet Domination as well. However, that isn't to be. (High velocity lead poisoning; I like it!) Lo e the update and can not wait to see where the battle of the Atlantic goes hopefully in the allies favour one small ask please do not sink Hermes the UK is rather short of carriers even though it’s a tad long in the tooth. It doesn't go in the Allies' favour, not on the surface of it anyway. The Atlantic remains contested and where the Soviets do well... far better than the Pacific. Ah, Hermes. Invincible has already been clobbered but Illustrious is active. Hermes will be in this fight. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Oct 24, 2018 19:46:01 GMT
(270b)
Carrier Battle Group Four, formed around the carrier USS Independence, steamed northwards at the fastest possible speed from the South Atlantic. CVBG 4 was heading for the fight against the Soviet convoys in the North Atlantic, fresh kills to add to the impressive tally of work done down below the Equator. Soviet maritime reconnaissance aircraft from the Azores on one side of the ocean and out of the Caribbean on the other tracked their progress. Independence’s F-14 Tomcats got a couple of them and chased away many more. The carrier danced all over the place, aiming to dodge what would be a certain attack. The Soviets made their attack and it was one which CVBG 4 wasn’t able to get out of the way of. The Backfire force from the Caribbean – weakened by the SEAL and then US Air Force attacks last month – coordinated a strike with more of those bombers flying from Lajes Field in the Azores. Reconnaissance versions of the Badger and Bear guided in the Backfires. When the attack was detected, only part of it was engaged by the carrier’s Tomcats. They went after the Backfires coming in from the west, those from out of Barbados and broke up the raid before missiles could be fired at CVBG 4. The victory was short-lived though because the bombers from the Azores (unseen until the very last second) fired from the other direction with the US Navy warships on the sea below zeroed-in.
Kitchen missiles had been met by the US Navy before in other fights above the Atlantic, the Med. and the Pacific too. Each time, these supersonic anti-ship weapons had been launched from low-altitude and came in very fast. They had been shot at with many killed though others had gotten through. When CVBG 4 came under attack, this time the launching Backfires fired from high altitude. It gave the Americans more time to react yet their Tomcats had already been drawn off. In addition, reaction time meant little when the Kitchens were able to do what they were able to do: climb first and then launch a plunging attack during their terminal dives. At a speed of Mach 4.6, three and a half thousand miles per hour, something quite unimaginable to those below them, down thirty-plus of them came towards the American warships. Self-defence missiles, anti-missile guns, attempts at jamming, launching chaff and sudden manoeuvres did very little to stop the inbounds from reaching their targets. A few were hit and killed but nowhere near enough.
Eleven hits were recorded on the Independence: eleven impacts from missiles each nearly forty-foot long and with a high-explosive 2000lb warhead. One of those was a dud but that didn’t matter, not with the impact like what came. Instantly, the carrier went up in flames. There was major shook damage and cracks appeared throughout the hull. The force of the missile impacts began to wrench her apart. Everything that could be done was put into saving the Independence. It was a forlorn hope. Her hull started to come apart and water rushed in. Abandon ship measures begun in haste yet when she broke apart and the two uneven pieces of the carrier went down, they sunk rather fast and took so many of her crew with her.
The Independence wouldn’t be taking part in the attacks on the Soviet convoys, not when she was at the bottom of the ocean. The United States had just seen the loss of a fifth aircraft carrier in this war, one they started with fourteen in service.
The gut-wrenching loss of the Independence for the US Navy came very quickly and at the wrong time (if there ever was one to lose a carrier and thousands of sailors) when she was meant to be part of the combined Allied naval strikes against the Soviets who had all of their ships out in the ocean. They were still there, coming south from Iceland and into what should have been the waiting arms of the aircraft from CVBG 4. Other naval assets were still in play though and they still moved into the attack. Without the Independence, plans changed and things were made more difficult yet the overall task remained: eliminate those cargo ships carrying all that war equipment and also kill the Soviet Navy while it was out in the open.
USS America began the attacks, striking from the western side of the ocean. Most of the carrier’s fighters were up on the watch-out for a Backfire strike from Keflavik yet the mass of A-6 Intruders and A-7 Corsairs, joined by some A-4 Skyhawks removed from storage and newer FA-18 Hornets (some of these extras which had recently arrived after transiting to the carrier from Newfoundland), went up against the screen of warships around Convoy #1. They targeted the missile-destroyers and anti-submarine ships blasting them from above once Soviet fighters from Iceland were too far away to help. Killing baby seals it was called though things weren’t that easy. With missiles of their own and a lot of jamming – powerful stuff; there was no finesse involved –, serious defensive measures were put up. The US Navy aircraft were winning though, sinking ships and opening up the defenceless ones beyond despite losses incurred. It was a long way to the Caribbean for the Soviets, a voyage which the US Navy hoped to see none of them make it as they would continue this all the way. At the same time, moving in from the east, with the plan adjusted with the Americans having lost a carrier before the fight began, the Royal Navy task group started their opening attacks too. Sea Harriers fired missiles at Soviet ships on the outer screen after they came from HMS Hermes. The RAF were about to commit a squadron of Tornado strike-bombers outfitted for the anti-ship role too with plans to first fly them from South-West England then later mainland Spain as well, using buddy-tanking to keep this up. Convoy #1 started to see itself opened up as its defensive layers were peeled away. Behind, Convoy #2 was only going to get more of the same… unless the Soviets could pull something out of their hat to change the situation dramatically.
The Soviet Navy hadn’t sent the battlecruiser Kirov to the open waters of the North Atlantic to preform the role of a pretty flagship nor missile-bait. Escorted on the surface by just a lone destroyer – but with a submarine below the waves and hidden –, the Kirov broke away from Convoy #1 and turned towards the America. A high-speed dash occurred as the massive ship raced like a battleship of old into the fight. The Americans saw her coming and directed attention towards her. The Kirov danced about, moving under a weather system and zig-zagging, but from above using radars mounted to search aircraft, the Americans had her fixed in their sights. They lined her up and went after her, throwing several squadrons of aircraft into the fight with anti-radar missiles used first and then Harpoon anti-ship missiles (all with far shorter range than Soviet anti-ship weapons). The battle-cruiser and the destroyer with her were hit many times and a mission-kill was declared by the America. That was an over assessment. Smashed up she was and there was a good chance that the Kirov wouldn’t make it home yet there was still fight left in her. The morning after the massed air attack, when the Americans were getting ready to come back again for more, the ship went forward at speed again. The sinking destroyer was left behind and the Kirov trailed a lot of smoke herself. Her missile arsenal was still functioning though. That hidden submarine had found the America and broadcast a scouting report before firing herself. Then the Kirov joined in, launching as many Shipwreck cruise missiles as possible. The surprise submarine attack hit several of the America’s escorts but not her. Those torpedoes were avoided by the carrier but not the ramjet-propelled Shipwrecks which were suddenly all over her and the other warships present. A trio struck home, smashing one-two-three down the length of her flight-deck. Damage control parties raced into action and put out the fires. Casualty numbers were horrendous but the America would survive. She was out of this fight though. Her aircraft weren’t and several flights of attack-rolled jets in the sky completed their planned strike on the Kirov regardless of their crippled carrier – setting the Soviet battlecruiser alight once again, this time fatally – before returning to the America and ditching nearby. Some aircrew were saved, others weren’t: the weather was terrible and the sea swallowed them.
First the Independence had been knocked out of the fight and now the America. The latter would have to go back to Norfolk because she was unable to conduct flight operations while the former was a new home for the fishes. Yes, they’d gotten the Kirov but at an awful price.
The convoys continued onwards. There were still Allied warships and the British kept up their attacks yet the Hermes wasn’t like an American carrier with dozens upon dozens of multi-role strike and support aircraft aboard. Cruiser, destroyers, frigates and submarines from the Allied navies moved in against the Soviets to engage their warships and submarines while trying to get at the cargo ships. Convoy #2 got off lighter than Convoy #1 did. Without those US Navy aircraft carriers about, the warships on the surface now had to worry about Soviet bombers who had skies free of Tomcats. There were Badgers and Bears up again, scouting for Soviet massed missile attacks. The navies of America, Britain, Canada and Spain couldn’t have their warships form up into big groups to allow for a large target for the Soviets to concentrate on so they had to act individually or in small groups. Hermes was especially sought by the Soviets and the Royal Navy ordered her to fall back, into the Bay of Biscay, when Backfires were reported flying from the Azores. This move brought her into the waiting gun-sights of a Soviet submarine, one which French tracking (information passed onto the Allies) had missed. The submarine opened fire, getting several torpedoes in close. One struck HMS Andromeda, a frigate which got in the way, while another blew up in the Hermes’ wake. She was damaged and really needed to go back to Devonport now rather than stay out at sea in the condition she was in. The submarine avoided all attempts to find and get her, infuriating the Royal Navy. It could have been far worse though and though like the America was, the Hermes would be out of action for some time, at least she wasn’t broken into pieces on the bottom of the ocean like the Independence.
There’d been more than two dozen Soviet warships sunk by the time Convoy #1 reached the Azores and then turned west to go across the ocean towards the Caribbean. Another three kills were achieved against her escorts before the ships reached there. As to the cargo vessels, carrying all the equipment & stores for the Soviet Army, several of them had gone under the waves too when hit by torpedoes fired from submarines rather than the guns & missiles of warships which couldn’t get near them. Convoy #2 avoided coming close to Azores and went much further south before turning westwards. There was a reason for this: the US Air Force. Flying from Georgia and using tankers for refuelling though with Bermuda available in an emergency, B-52 had hit Lajes Field from afar. They’d fired AGM-86 land-attack cruise missiles, the non-nuclear missile forced on the US Air Force when the incoming Kennedy Administration had forced the abandonment of nuclear installation yet kept the missile programme as a political fudge. The strike came six days after the Backfires from here had caught the Independence, six days too late as far as the US Navy was concerned. The strike was a stunning success. Aircraft were caught on the ground and facilities smashed up. Soviet ships stayed away from the Azores in response, worried that the Americans would use anti-ship variants of such a missile next time. This was a needless concern: no such fitting was available. Onwards Convoy #2 went, only little troubled by infrequent attacks when Convoy #1 took most of the attention. A big attack was feared at any moment from unknown American forces which the Soviets were sure that they must have had. Aircraft from out of the Caribbean searched for an incoming strike as the ships came closer but the cupboard was bare.
First Convoy #1 and the Convoy #2 reached the Caribbean. They still had to get to Texas, and unload successfully, but the ships had made it throw the ocean that the Allies boasted they owned. The warships that had come with them, those who’d made it this far when so many others had been lost en-route were now on the wrong side of the ocean. They’d never been this far before. They’d have to go back at some point, have to. Why? Because the massive escort for these two convoys that had been demanded had meant stripping Soviet naval forces from the Norwegian Sea. They’d face the challenge of an opposed crossing of the North Atlantic in winter once again come the New Year. Going now would be best, when the three US Atlantic Fleet carriers not sunk were all in port getting repairs, but that was not to be.
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I know your hinted that the convoy taking the S Atlantic route is likely to run into problems but not sure how those others have got across the N Atlantic. True the Soviets have bases at Iceland and in the Azores but it would be hoped that the USN would be seeking to put a serious lock on movement across the Atlantic. Especially of Soviet reinforcements for the invasion of the US.
