James G
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Post by James G on Feb 24, 2018 22:38:08 GMT
(42)Those actions were to smash the troublemakers in a clandestine manner. I fear these actions might escalate things in Poland. It won't end well, yes indeed.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 25, 2018 9:01:55 GMT
I fear these actions might escalate things in Poland. It won't end well, yes indeed. So much worse than OTL i can only assume.
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Post by lukedalton on Feb 25, 2018 9:39:17 GMT
It won't end well, yes indeed. So much worse than OTL i can only assume. Going for wikipedia, the official number of death during the initial phase of the martial law is : 90; at this you need to add around 700.000 people that emigrated from Poland due to the economic and political problems (even by hijaking commerical flight). So a military intervention by the Warsaw Pact will be much more costly in term of human lives (the invasion of Czechoslovakia deaths were around 250 and the operation was considered textbook), even if the final cost depend if the Polish armed forces decide to collaborate with the soviets, stand down and self-confine in their barracks or fight the invasion. Another consequences will be probably the invasion of the western embassies by Polish citizens trying to escape, i doubt that the various western goverments will evict them (too horrible PR) but this will cause new diplomatic problem with the URSS
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 25, 2018 11:20:49 GMT
So much worse than OTL i can only assume. Going for wikipedia, the official number of death during the initial phase of the martial law is : 90; at this you need to add around 700.000 people that emigrated from Poland due to the economic and political problems (even by hijaking commerical flight). So a military intervention by the Warsaw Pact will be much more costly in term of human lives (the invasion of Czechoslovakia deaths were around 250 and the operation was considered textbook), even if the final cost depend if the Polish armed forces decide to collaborate with the soviets, stand down and self-confine in their barracks or fight the invasion. Another consequences will be probably the invasion of the western embassies by Polish citizens trying to escape, i doubt that the various western goverments will evict them (too horrible PR) but this will cause new diplomatic problem with the URSS I agree, the events in Poland will most likely will be bloodier than what was the case in OTL.
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 25, 2018 17:30:38 GMT
Going for wikipedia, the official number of death during the initial phase of the martial law is : 90; at this you need to add around 700.000 people that emigrated from Poland due to the economic and political problems (even by hijaking commerical flight). So a military intervention by the Warsaw Pact will be much more costly in term of human lives (the invasion of Czechoslovakia deaths were around 250 and the operation was considered textbook), even if the final cost depend if the Polish armed forces decide to collaborate with the soviets, stand down and self-confine in their barracks or fight the invasion. Another consequences will be probably the invasion of the western embassies by Polish citizens trying to escape, i doubt that the various western goverments will evict them (too horrible PR) but this will cause new diplomatic problem with the URSS I agree, the events in Poland will most likely will be bloodier than what was the case in OTL. Oh, yes. It will be. I'm planning for two events. A Polish only affair (pushed by Moscow though) before the end of 1980. Then a second, Soviet invasion in later years. We'll see the first in the next couple of days.
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 25, 2018 17:31:08 GMT
(43)
August 1980:
Guatemala City was a war zone. There was fighting all over the city through August with urban guerrillas fighting the government alongside a wave of protests against the regime that took place while criminal gangs ran riot. The hated National Police joined with the army in battling the threats to the rule of Ríos Montt as well as law and order. A lot of the trouble was caused by deniable actions undertaken by agent provocateurs sent not just by the rebels in the EGP but also military intelligence as well. It was a complicated situation and a brutal series of fighting in the city and through its outskirts including the industrial Villa Nueva urban area to the south. Guatemalans had fled the city yet others had come into the national capital too when escaping violence in rural areas. Too many people were in a small area. As control was lost, the government overreacted and alliances were formed along those taking the forefront of their bullets. Bullets soon became heavier weapons though. In outlying regions of the city, long neglected by the government and effective slums, there was the use of artillery and aircraft-dropped bombs to smash apart dug-in rebel enclaves carved out. Casualties, especially among the innocent caught in the cross-fire, were horrendous. The EGP took action in response when the government went that far by using special strike teams to hit the Presidential Palace and the international airport in more propaganda attacks. The seat of government went up in flames while the airport was bracketed with mortar and rocket attacks. Attention from afar was already on Guatemala City with foreign journalists present and also often gunfire near to the various embassies. Those only increased that concern. With the diplomatic representations, most cut back staff numbers to leave only key people. There were deaths among the journalists, those who didn’t get the unsaid message that the whole city was falling apart and that this was the end of the regime.
Other foreigners were caught up in the violence away from the city. Out in the countryside, Ríos Montt implemented the start of a genocide against his opponents which saw both the unintentional and intentional (it depended upon the circumstances) killings of those in the wrong place at the wrong time: these were American, Canadian and Spanish citizens on aid & religious missions. The president had his enemies and those enemies were to be eliminated. There were massacres, forced starvation, torture and war rape. Guatemala under previous leaders had long been successful with their forced disappearances and ruling by a reign of terror that way, but Ríos Montt decided that that wasn’t bringing about the desired results. The army was instructed to kill and kill again. Parts of the army went about this with much gusto and enjoyed themselves killing the helpless and especially the Mayan minority. Others refused to do so either overtly or lied to the president when he demanded news on how many were being killed. The military was splitting down the middle and actively looking to get themselves out of this situation with what many regarded as a genocidal, religious maniac in charge. There had been rumblings among senior officers before about deposing Ríos Montt with many of those men being ‘killed by rebels’ or ‘fleeing abroad’ but this second time around the numbers were widespread and many mid-ranking officers joined them. They were all looking for someone else to lead them, be it one of their number or someone from the civilian opposition. The communist rebels in the EGP were out of the question in regards to giving into them but anyone else would do. Anyone else but Ríos Montt.
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Feb 25, 2018 19:20:53 GMT
Good update...
Ford is not going to be regarded well by history, IMO...
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 25, 2018 19:26:06 GMT
Ford is not going to be regarded well by history, IMO... Why is that lordbyron.
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 25, 2018 19:32:27 GMT
Ford is not going to be regarded well by history, IMO... Why is that lordbyron . Because he has 'lost' Iran, Nicaragua and soon Guatemala too. This combined with being there at the head of an economic crisis won't play good in the short-term. In the medium-term, his presidency will be looked back on as being responsible for the chain of events that lead to Red Dawn. President 40 will get it far worse though.
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 25, 2018 19:33:02 GMT
(44)
September 1980:
Between a quarter and a third of Poland’s workers were on strike. The number grew daily and those refusing to work were active in protest movements nationwide. The protests hadn’t seen violence come with them though there had been some rather close calls with that. Rumours swirled among the people that there were efforts being undertaken by the government to incite trouble so that they could have an excuse to unleash the riot police, soldiers would probably follow them including ones from Poland’s eastern neighbour. More rumours among Poles striking and those watching them in support said that there were also underhand moves being made to disrupt the organisation behind the strikes too. Accidents, suicides and disappearances were taking place among key people. There were also smears with wild allegations spread about important figures among the leaders of the strikes nationwide. These rumours were spread by word of mouth and were inflated as they went though there were also other stories going around as well saying that this was all lies. The falsehoods were being spread by the government, people said, even ‘the Russians’. The fate of some people where they crashed their cars, were electrocuted in the bath or decided to visit distant relatives never to be seen again were also the work of those trying to break the will of the strike. Keep strong, keep firm and keep united. This message was spread by those of influence, a number which slowly diminished and led to the rise of voices from others… those who were calling for restraint and a possible compromise with the government.
The KGB was involved fully in the Polish strikes. They had Poles helping them though most of those were useful idiots being manipulated into helping them without fully understanding what was going on in regards to the big picture. Other Poles caught on, well-aware of what the Soviets would do, though they struggled to get their message out to their fellow Poles. The KGB then doubled down: they spread more rumours, some even claiming interference in Polish affairs by themselves yet also ‘Germans’ (East Germans) and the Polish government. Moreover, the KGB started targeting those who were trying to expose them with efforts made to discredit them through framing them for murders or planting evidence that pointed to them working to bring down the strikes. Trust went out of the window from Poles of many of their fellow countrymen. Still, there were some who could see what was going on. When Lech Walesa had his fatal accident, there was the recognition that the Soviets were showing no restraint here and weren’t going to stop even when exposed. A trickle of Poles managed to leave the country and headed for the West. They brought with them news of what was going on in Poland and hoped that by telling their stories, it would stop.
The West already knew. KGB killings, lies and disinformation might have fooled many ordinary Poles but it didn’t get past the majority of the professional intelligence agencies in Western Europe and North America. The Soviets played a very clever game with Poland yet left too many fingerprints on their actions. There was a lot of haste from the KGB. The CIA, MI-6, the DGSE and Mossad all had connections within Poland, even small ones, and Soviet manipulation was spotted, especially when these agencies talked with each other as they exchanged information. The news was shared with political masters.
President Ford made a strong statement on Poland in mid-September where he praised the efforts of ‘brave Polish workers’ who used peaceful protests against the regime before he turned to criticise the ‘Soviet interference’ there. He warned (in more diplomatic language than his criticism of the KGB) the Soviet Union that the United States wouldn’t stand idly by if what had been done to Afghanistan and Iran was done to Poland. Gromyko was at the United Nations building in New York the next day where he accused the United States of fermenting international tension plus also interference from Washington into internal Polish affairs. Allegations of Soviet interference were called lies: the ‘worse kind of base fabrications’ coming from a ‘confused and tired president’. The Soviet foreign minister then went on the attack with whataboutism when it came to American involvement in Guatemala too.
Gromyko was at the UN because there had been an American-sponsored motion there to try to bring aid to Afghan refugees in Pakistan that the Soviets were trying to kill with diplomacy. They had a veto on any Security Council resolution if it came to that but the intention was to stop the process early by using behind-the-scenes diplomatic arm-twisting first. Any UN effort to assist those who had fled into Pakistan would draw more attention to Afghanistan than Moscow wanted. There were already other avenues being explored with Pakistan to convince them to bend to the will of the Soviet Union when the United States had shown no desire to protect them yet this UN attempt by the Americans threatened that. If the Pakistanis were emboldened by the UN paying attention, then that could unravel the covert diplomacy being used against Islamabad. Gromyko did what he came to New York to do. He and his staff managed to kill the move to send help to Afghan refugees. It cost the Soviet Union little in terms of secret deals with other member nations. What it did too was leave the United States looking isolated and their president embarrassed. He was on his way out and another one incoming – neither of which Moscow favoured – but for now, this was what was important. Poland was another matter and the Soviets were confident that should that be brought to the UN, it could be handled in a similar manner.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 25, 2018 19:43:45 GMT
(44)Poland was another matter and the Soviets were confident that should that be brought to the UN, it could be handled in a similar manner. I wonder if that will be the case.
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 25, 2018 21:28:20 GMT
(44)Poland was another matter and the Soviets were confident that should that be brought to the UN, it could be handled in a similar manner. I wonder if that will be the case. Everyone will take notice of Poland. There is only one time to act there, a three month window which pops up every 4/8 years.
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Feb 25, 2018 21:38:13 GMT
Yeah, Soviets, I don't think it'll go like the aid to Pakistan attempt...
This is so not going to end well. For anyone.
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James G
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Post by James G on Feb 26, 2018 9:39:36 GMT
Yeah, Soviets, I don't think it'll go like the aid to Pakistan attempt... This is so not going to end well. For anyone. Too many people will pay attention to Poland and many will have influence. This will be the real end of detente. Someone will always benefit, make a profit though.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 26, 2018 15:17:35 GMT
Yeah, Soviets, I don't think it'll go like the aid to Pakistan attempt... This is so not going to end well. For anyone. Too many people will pay attention to Poland and many will have influence. This will be the real end of detente. Someone will always benefit, make a profit though. Poland is in Europe, i think it will get more attention then Iran ore Afghanistan.
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