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Post by patrick1978 on Dec 24, 2017 15:03:31 GMT
The United States is still a democracy, no way they will team up with Germany and Japan. There could be do-facto alliances between democracies and totalitarian dictatorships, as happened in WWII. However it could be more a case of say Japan taking advantage of US distraction to attack it while its at war with Britain. Which puts London in a political quandry as can they reject an ally while a major ally is under attack? Depending on how long the war with the US lasts and what the outcome is Britain might end up being unable to get involved in the European conflict so, if butterflies don't mean France takes out Germany while its still weak as mentioned in my previous post, France falls and the Nazis and Soviets tear up eastern Europe for god knows how many years! Hopefully with neither of them winning but probably with most of the people in Europe losing.  If the butterflies helped Yamamoto assume the position of Prime Minister instead of Tojo, the Japanese Empire and United States may very well officially align by World War II. Following the Second World War, this alliance would almost certainly continue throughout the Cold War with the American-Japanese Alliance on one side and the continental empire of Germania on the other. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 24, 2017 15:16:52 GMT
There could be do-facto alliances between democracies and totalitarian dictatorships, as happened in WWII. However it could be more a case of say Japan taking advantage of US distraction to attack it while its at war with Britain. Which puts London in a political quandry as can they reject an ally while a major ally is under attack? Depending on how long the war with the US lasts and what the outcome is Britain might end up being unable to get involved in the European conflict so, if butterflies don't mean France takes out Germany while its still weak as mentioned in my previous post, France falls and the Nazis and Soviets tear up eastern Europe for god knows how many years! Hopefully with neither of them winning but probably with most of the people in Europe losing. If the butterflies helped Yamamoto assume the position of Prime Minister instead of Tojo, the Japanese Empire and United States may very well officially align by World War II. Following the Second World War, this alliance would almost certainly continue throughout the Cold War with the American-Japanese Alliance on one side and the continental empire of Germania on the other. Do not think even with Japan having a naval officer in charge of the country, the United states would ally with them, to many issues between them, one of them being China. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2017 15:52:35 GMT
Probably not as its pretty far from any significant British bases or the main theatre's of fighting. Probably more likely having some plans in reserve for blocking the Panama canal to isolate US forces and MS and make holding a position in the Caribbean easier. Then they also have to deal with the American presences in the Philippines and Guam. That assumes the US can do much from them. The Philippines can threaten trade with China and Japan but their at the end of a very long supply line and the population of the Philippines may not be happy with being dragged into a war that has no benefit for them. Could see some raids on military targets and attempts to encourage new resistance to the US forces there. Also possibly operating from S Pacific bases against supply colonies to the islands. Could see attempts to take, or at least nullify Wake and/or Guam as their largely undefended at this point, unless you assume the US has started defending them earlier than OTL. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2017 15:57:26 GMT
There could be do-facto alliances between democracies and totalitarian dictatorships, as happened in WWII. However it could be more a case of say Japan taking advantage of US distraction to attack it while its at war with Britain. Which puts London in a political quandry as can they reject an ally while a major ally is under attack? Depending on how long the war with the US lasts and what the outcome is Britain might end up being unable to get involved in the European conflict so, if butterflies don't mean France takes out Germany while its still weak as mentioned in my previous post, France falls and the Nazis and Soviets tear up eastern Europe for god knows how many years! Hopefully with neither of them winning but probably with most of the people in Europe losing. If the butterflies helped Yamamoto assume the position of Prime Minister instead of Tojo, the Japanese Empire and United States may very well officially align by World War II. Following the Second World War, this alliance would almost certainly continue throughout the Cold War with the American-Japanese Alliance on one side and the continental empire of Germania on the other. Yamamoto is a pretty minor figure in the navy at this point. He was in danger of assassination by the hard liners. As such, even apart from what Lordroel said about army opposition to a navy PM and the US opposition to Japanese actions in China I think its highly unlikely he would get into such a role. Even if he did he would recognise, like the rest of the Japanese leadership, that the US is the major threat to the Japanese empire. Plus the fact it seems to be going on an imperialistic rampage, attacking a close ally, possibly out of the blue is going to make the Japanese concerned about future US actions if/when they win the war against Canada and Britain. Is Japan going to be next on the hit list? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 24, 2017 15:58:41 GMT
If the butterflies helped Yamamoto assume the position of Prime Minister instead of Tojo, the Japanese Empire and United States may very well officially align by World War II. Following the Second World War, this alliance would almost certainly continue throughout the Cold War with the American-Japanese Alliance on one side and the continental empire of Germania on the other. Yamamoto is a pretty minor figure in the navy at this point. He was in danger of assassination by the hard liners. As such, even apart from what Lordroel said about army opposition to a navy PM and the US opposition to Japanese actions in China I think its highly unlikely he would get into such a role. Even if he did he would recognise, like the rest of the Japanese leadership, that the US is the major threat to the Japanese empire. Plus the fact it seems to be going on an imperialistic rampage, attacking a close ally, possibly out of the blue is going to make the Japanese concerned about future US actions if/when they win the war against Canada and Britain. Is Japan going to be next on the hit list? But Japan has not much to gain to support the Americans if they go with War Plan Red, only offend the British i think, |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2017 16:06:03 GMT
Yamamoto is a pretty minor figure in the navy at this point. He was in danger of assassination by the hard liners. As such, even apart from what Lordroel said about army opposition to a navy PM and the US opposition to Japanese actions in China I think its highly unlikely he would get into such a role. Even if he did he would recognise, like the rest of the Japanese leadership, that the US is the major threat to the Japanese empire. Plus the fact it seems to be going on an imperialistic rampage, attacking a close ally, possibly out of the blue is going to make the Japanese concerned about future US actions if/when they win the war against Canada and Britain. Is Japan going to be next on the hit list? But Japan has not much to gain to support the Americans if they go with War Plan Red, only offend the British i think, Well they might be tempted by the idea of say grabbing Malaya although that could be awkward and without wars with other European powers such as the French and Dutch they couldn't attack say FIC or the DEI. If they go on a general rampage they could end up creating a powerful alliance against them. Also as I say Britain, while angry at their operations in China isn't a direct threat to the Japanese empire. The US is a long established rival and is now looking dangerously expansionist. How sure would the Japanese be that once Britain is defeat they wouldn't be next? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 24, 2017 16:36:17 GMT
But Japan has not much to gain to support the Americans if they go with War Plan Red, only offend the British i think, Well they might be tempted by the idea of say grabbing Malaya although that could be awkward and without wars with other European powers such as the French and Dutch they couldn't attack say FIC or the DEI. If they go on a general rampage they could end up creating a powerful alliance against them. Also as I say Britain, while angry at their operations in China isn't a direct threat to the Japanese empire. The US is a long established rival and is now looking dangerously expansionist. How sure would the Japanese be that once Britain is defeat they wouldn't be next? Does Japan still in 1937 have good relations with the United Kingdom. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2017 23:24:53 GMT
Well they might be tempted by the idea of say grabbing Malaya although that could be awkward and without wars with other European powers such as the French and Dutch they couldn't attack say FIC or the DEI. If they go on a general rampage they could end up creating a powerful alliance against them. Also as I say Britain, while angry at their operations in China isn't a direct threat to the Japanese empire. The US is a long established rival and is now looking dangerously expansionist. How sure would the Japanese be that once Britain is defeat they wouldn't be next? Does Japan still in 1937 have good relations with the United Kingdom. Not really. Britain at that pount is doing as much to oppose their military expansion in China as the US. Later of course the problems in Europe mean attention has to concentrate there. However Britain isn't really threatening Japan as much as the US has, both verbally and via its base in the Philippines, which lies directly across the Japanese trade and import routes. |
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