lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 4, 2017 15:28:02 GMT
What If: King Henry V lives pass 1422In the summer of 1422, Henry V, founder of the Plantagenet empire and one of the decisive figures in world history, was at the Château de Vincennes, near Paris, when he was struck down by dysentery. By the end of August, he had made arrangements for his brother to rule as his baby son's guardian. But then, as one chronicler put it, "God smiled on England." The fever lifted and medieval history's hero king pulled through. A year later, he was back in the saddle and the subjugation of France went on. Had Henry been struck down at such a young age, it is plausible that the Treaty of Troyes, guaranteeing him the French crown after the death of the incumbent, would have fallen apart. It is even possible that England would have lost the Hundred Years War, unlikely as that sounds today. In the event, Henry became the first dual king of England and France, with isolated territories in the south holding out until the 1430s. By that time, not even his infatuation with his mistress, a former prostitute from eastern France called Joan - sarcastically nicknamed "the Maid of Orleans" - could detract from his popularity and prestige. When Henry died at the age of 60, the Anglo-French dual monarchy was established. The court had moved from London to Paris, and as a result French was confirmed as the language of the political classes - a situation that endured until the first half of the 19th century. His successor, the pious Henry VI, ruled over one of the richest, most stable societies in Europe. By the time his son, Edward IV, succeeded to the throne in 1485, the dual monarchy was at the vanguard of the movement we know as the Renaissance, with Leonardo da Vinci just one of the many artists lured north by Edward's patronage. It is doubtful, however, whether the dual monarchy could have lasted. By the time the Wars of Religion began in the 1580s, many English merchants had come to see the Plantagenets as remote, French autocrats. Protestantism and English popular resentment became tightly intertwined. Shakespeare even wrote a celebrated political play, Henry V, satirising the former king as a sissified Catholic fop. It was not until 1789 that England definitively went its own way, the storming of the Tower of London paving the way for a republic under Charles James Fox. The irony is that, even though France remains the ancestral enemy, the cultural special relationship could hardly be stronger. The beret and the polo neck remain essential components of English national dress, pétanque is still our national sport and, above all, everybody loves a mime artist. What a tragedy for England it would have been if Henry V had died young. This article was posted on News Statesman and was called: What If ... Henry V had lived on
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doug181
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Post by doug181 on Jul 6, 2017 15:54:21 GMT
Plantagenet were always more French than English
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 6, 2017 15:56:09 GMT
Plantagenet were always more French than English Well i do know one thing, a French-English dual monarchy would never survive so long as mention in the article.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2017 10:29:13 GMT
Plantagenet were always more French than English Well i do know one thing, a French-English dual monarchy would never survive so long as mention in the article. Not without successful use of force I fear. Both nations already had a strong core identity and would be unhappy settling for what was seen as rule by another. The best reasonably stable result I could actually see for the Plantagenet dynasty would be a limited victory under Edward III that sees Aquitaine and say Brittany recognised as fully independent of France, rather than fiefdoms and secured under Plantagenet rule. If Henry V did survive and live to a ripe old age as suggested then as well as 'French' resistance in the south he might still have to deal with Burgundy, which was a powerful dynasty in the east of France expanding into the Low Countries, although since they were allies against the 'French' this might not be a problem in the shorter term. Henry V was IIRC, pretty religious so he might end up leading a new crusade, possibly to fight the Turks in the Balkans. [There was one in 1444, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Varna ]Its possible that with a stable and powerful Anglo-French dynasty and a religious king Henry might send troops or even come himself. Which if it avoided the old problems of squabbles between leaders over command and tactics could make for a hell of a difference. At best you might see the Ottomans expelled from most/all of Europe, at least for a while. On the other hand its likely to be very expensive, both in men and money and could see unrest in the kingdom while the king is absent. Not to mention the risk of him dying. If Henry VI is the historical one then apart from any tension potentially tearing the kingdom apart, and you could see the Yorkists in this scenario being an English nationalist/independence movement, you could well have the problems of his health and mental problems, inherited from his mother. Which could lead to a weak reign and unrest in either both kingdoms.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2017 10:34:49 GMT
Plantagenet were always more French than English Early ones yes but I think under Edward III he started to Anglicise the kingdom, with England becoming the language of court again rather than the 3rd language of the realm. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_III_of_England#Chivalry_and_national_identity. As the article said Edward kept his options open as he had a strong claim to the French throne but the country [England] ceased to be ruled by a solely French speaking nobility.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Jul 12, 2017 4:23:40 GMT
Plantagenet were always more French than English Early ones yes but I think under Edward III he started to Anglicise the kingdom, with England becoming the language of court again rather than the 3rd language of the realm. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_III_of_England#Chivalry_and_national_identity. As the article said Edward kept his options open as he had a strong claim to the French throne but the country [England] ceased to be ruled by a solely French speaking nobility. I really see an alt-edward of westminister marrying Mary of Burgundy..
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 12, 2017 17:15:10 GMT
Early ones yes but I think under Edward III he started to Anglicise the kingdom, with England becoming the language of court again rather than the 3rd language of the realm. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_III_of_England#Chivalry_and_national_identity. As the article said Edward kept his options open as he had a strong claim to the French throne but the country [England] ceased to be ruled by a solely French speaking nobility. I really see an alt-edward of westminister marrying Mary of Burgundy.. Well ultimately Burgundy became part of the Hapsburg empire via marriage so a marriage bringing it into the Plantagent realms could well occur. If its expanded to include the modern Netherlands, as OTL, by then, that's a hell of a state being put together. Plus since several provinces are within the HRE its ruler could be a good candicate for election. Which would probably have just about everybody in west and central Europe literally on the warpath to prevent such an accumulation of power!
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Aug 30, 2017 7:25:00 GMT
I think France and England will be divided between the sons of Henry V.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 30, 2017 18:04:18 GMT
I think France will be divided between the sons of Henry V. That is if he has more than one son.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 30, 2017 18:19:50 GMT
I think France will be divided between the sons of Henry V. That might happen as to a degree that's what occurred with Henry II's empire, or at least was the plan. You could see England and related lands [Ireland, Wales, claims on Scotland?] going to a younger son. Possibly if there were third son surviving to adulthood you might see a 3rd realm out of say Aquitaine and Brittany. On the other hand I'm not sure when England formally accepted primogeniture? Checking on Wiki it says that "It was practiced in the succession to the thrones of England and Scotland and then the United Kingdom from the Norman Conquest in 1066 until 2015, when an act of parliament changed it to absolute primogeniture." Where 'it' was male-preference primogeniture. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture#Male-preference_primogeniture. This could rule against a division of the territory. Although I do know that after William's death in 1086 his empire was split with the older son, Robert inheriting Normandy and the younger one William got England. Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 30, 2017 18:21:18 GMT
I think France will be divided between the sons of Henry V. That might happen as to a degree that's what occurred with Henry II's empire, or at least was the plan. You could see England and related lands [Ireland, Wales, claims on Scotland?] going to a younger son. Possibly if there were third son surviving to adulthood you might see a 3rd realm out of say Aquitaine and Brittany. On the other hand I'm not sure when England formally accepted primogeniture? Checking on Wiki it says that "It was practiced in the succession to the thrones of England and Scotland and then the United Kingdom from the Norman Conquest in 1066 until 2015, when an act of parliament changed it to absolute primogeniture." Where 'it' was male-preference primogeniture. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture#Male-preference_primogeniture. This could rule against a division of the territory. Although I do know that after William's death in 1086 his empire was split with the older son, Robert inheriting Normandy and the younger one William got England. Steve That could turn into a war one day between them.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 31, 2017 20:57:30 GMT
That might happen as to a degree that's what occurred with Henry II's empire, or at least was the plan. You could see England and related lands [Ireland, Wales, claims on Scotland?] going to a younger son. Possibly if there were third son surviving to adulthood you might see a 3rd realm out of say Aquitaine and Brittany. On the other hand I'm not sure when England formally accepted primogeniture? Checking on Wiki it says that "It was practiced in the succession to the thrones of England and Scotland and then the United Kingdom from the Norman Conquest in 1066 until 2015, when an act of parliament changed it to absolute primogeniture." Where 'it' was male-preference primogeniture. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture#Male-preference_primogeniture. This could rule against a division of the territory. Although I do know that after William's death in 1086 his empire was split with the older son, Robert inheriting Normandy and the younger one William got England. Steve That could turn into a war one day between them. Very likely. After all Robert didn't stay in charge of Normandy long before his younger brother took it over.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 31, 2017 20:59:38 GMT
That could turn into a war one day between them. Very likely. After all Robert didn't stay in charge of Normandy long before his younger brother took it over. That is if Henry V gets more sons, he could also get a girl.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 2, 2017 18:51:20 GMT
Very likely. After all Robert didn't stay in charge of Normandy long before his younger brother took it over. That is if Henry V gets more sons, he could also get a girl. As long as he and his wife live long enough and he's not away too long fighting there could be a lot of children. Come to think of it, if he lives but she dies, say in childbirth with a later child he could well marry again. Which could set an interesting question as children by a 2nd wife might not be recognied by the French. So if OTL Henry VI dies or proves incapable as in OTL and a younger son took over then you could see a large section of the French possibly seeking to break away, or keeping loyal to Henry VI if deposed. That could bring a quick end to an Anglo-French union but results in a new period of Anglo-French conflict.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 2, 2017 19:43:10 GMT
That is if Henry V gets more sons, he could also get a girl. As long as he and his wife live long enough and he's not away too long fighting there could be a lot of children. Come to think of it, if he lives but she dies, say in childbirth with a later child he could well marry again. Which could set an interesting question as children by a 2nd wife might not be recognied by the French. So if OTL Henry VI dies or proves incapable as in OTL and a younger son took over then you could see a large section of the French possibly seeking to break away, or keeping loyal to Henry VI if deposed. That could bring a quick end to an Anglo-French union but results in a new period of Anglo-French conflict. Well at least if he lives on and his wives dies early in given birth to their second child we know he will not turn into a Henry VIII as he already has a heir in Henry VI.
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