pericles
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Post by pericles on May 19, 2017 6:19:13 GMT
What if on October 28, 2016, James Comey, the now former FBI Director, chose not to send a letter to Congress informing them of the reopening of the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails? Comey's letter went against standard DOJ policy, which was not to comment on open investigations, especially before an election. Comey's conduct was seen as wrong, unpredented and reckless by many legal experts and they argued he should have not commented on the matter at least until after the election. Comey himself defended the decision saying that going through the door named 'conceal' would also have been catastrophic and the best option was to send the letter. However, the evidence shows that, despite many media denials of this(probably because if Comey cost Clinton the election, their coverage of the Comey letter could be said to have cost her the election), Comey cost Hillary Clinton the election. That's not to excuse Hillary Clinton's campaign or diminish Trump's, she made mistakes and was a flawed candidate and other factors played a role. But if Comey had not sent the letter, she likely would have been elected. The letter had a noticeable impact on the polls, and as Nate Silver said, that impact was not one of a downward trend over time but of the polls being shifted by a major news event, such as a vague letter that reopened the Clinton email investigation, with the words 'Clinton, email, FBI' being in voter's thoughts and wall-to-wall coverage of the letter, and without enough information it helped foster the impression Clinton was indeed crooked. This is proven by the majority of media coverage of Clinton in the final stretch, in contrast with previous weeks, being negative. On October 28, Clinton led Trump by 4.6%(http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html), on November 3, she led him by 1.3%. Clinton's favorability rating fell from -7% to -14% in a week, moving much closer to Trump's very low ratings and enabling him to pull off an upset. Undecided voters went to Trump, swinging Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania to him(without which he would have lost the election), all of which he won by less than 1% and perhaps swinging Florida too. While the investigation was closed just before the election, the letter misleading created the impression Clinton was corrupt, cost her early votes and there were many undecided voters, and the last thing they were hearing about was 'Clinton email FBI' and not Trump's flaws. Nate Silver also recognized that Comey cost Clinton the election(https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/). Most likely college-educated white voters who had voted for Romney but were undecided because of Trump(Trump did far worse with college-educated whites than any Republican in decades) 'came home' to Trump because of the letter and otherwise may have voted for Clinton. The question Silver asks is whether the Comey effect was a 'Little Comey' effect or a "Big Comey' effect. My results for no Comey letter are more towards a big Comey effect. 2016 US presidential election Hillary Clinton/Tim Kaine-Democratic: 307 EV 49.55% Donald Trump/Mike Pence-Republican: 231 EV 44.46%
2016 House elections
Paul Ryan-Republican: 237-10 47.6% Nancy Pelosi-Democratic: 198+10 49.5%
435 seats 218 for majority 2016 Senate elections
Mitch McConnell-Republican: 51+3 40.9% Harry Reid(retiring)-Democratic: 47+3 55.3%Independent: 2_ 100 seats 51 for majority Hillary Clinton wins the presidency, while Republicans keep control of Congress. It's possible Comey sends the letter after the election, therefore igniting a media firestorm and damaging Clinton's presidency. It's possible that, like Bill Clinton, Republicans would impeach Clinton at some point in her presidency(though they would almost certainly not have the votes to remove her from office, impeachment and conviction being different things). At the very least they would investigate her, Jason Chaffetz said they had 'two year's worth of material' on her even before the election. What would Hillary Clinton be able to do as President? Would she be able to pass immigration reform or infrastructure reform? How would she do as President? What would her relationship with the GOP Congress be like? How would Donald Trump react to losing to Hillary Clinton-would he concede? How would the Republicans handle the defeat, the third consecutive defeat in a presidential election-would Trump supporters blame the establishment(probably), would the establishment try to 'modernize' the GOP and support a candidate like Rubio or Paul Ryan for 2020(probably but it may not work), or would the GOP turn to a 'true conservative' in 2020 such as Ted Cruz(unlikely but possible)? I think the 2018 midterms would go very badly for the Democrats ITTL and the Republicans, with an unpopular President Clinton and a great Senate map, would likely gain a filibuster-proof majority. What would have been the effects of this outcome? How would US politics and the world be altered by a Clinton win? What would be the effects? What if?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2017 7:03:03 GMT
What if on October 28, 2016, James Comey, the now former FBI Director, chose not to send a letter to Congress informing them of the reopening of the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails? Comey's letter went against standard DOJ policy, which was not to comment on open investigations, especially before an election. Comey's conduct was seen as wrong, unpredented and reckless by many legal experts and they argued he should have not commented on the matter at least until after the election. Comey himself defended the decision saying that going through the door named 'conceal' would also have been catastrophic and the best option was to send the letter. However, the evidence shows that, despite many media denials of this(probably because if Comey cost Clinton the election, their coverage of the Comey letter could be said to have cost her the election), Comey cost Hillary Clinton the election. That's not to excuse Hillary Clinton's campaign or diminish Trump's, she made mistakes and was a flawed candidate and other factors played a role. But if Comey had not sent the letter, she likely would have been elected. The letter had a noticeable impact on the polls, and as Nate Silver said, that impact was not one of a downward trend over time but of the polls being shifted by a major news event, such as a vague letter that reopened the Clinton email investigation, with the words 'Clinton, email, FBI' being in voter's thoughts and wall-to-wall coverage of the letter, and without enough information it helped foster the impression Clinton was indeed crooked. This is proven by the majority of media coverage of Clinton in the final stretch, in contrast with previous weeks, being negative. On October 28, Clinton led Trump by 4.6%(http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html), on November 3, she led him by 1.3%. Clinton's favorability rating fell from -7% to -14% in a week, moving much closer to Trump's very low ratings and enabling him to pull off an upset. Undecided voters went to Trump, swinging Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania to him(without which he would have lost the election), all of which he won by less than 1% and perhaps swinging Florida too. While the investigation was closed just before the election, the letter misleading created the impression Clinton was corrupt, cost her early votes and there were many undecided voters, and the last thing they were hearing about was 'Clinton email FBI' and not Trump's flaws. Nate Silver also recognized that Comey cost Clinton the election(https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/). Most likely college-educated white voters who had voted for Romney but were undecided because of Trump(Trump did far worse with college-educated whites than any Republican in decades) 'came home' to Trump because of the letter and otherwise may have voted for Clinton. The question Silver asks is whether the Comey effect was a 'Little Comey' effect or a "Big Comey' effect. My results for no Comey letter are more towards a big Comey effect. 2016 US presidential election Hillary Clinton/Tim Kaine-Democratic: 307 EV 49.55% Donald Trump/Mike Pence-Republican: 231 EV 44.46%
2016 House elections
Paul Ryan-Republican: 237-10 47.6% Nancy Pelosi-Democratic: 198+10 49.5%
435 seats 218 for majority 2016 Senate elections
Mitch McConnell-Republican: 51+3 40.9% Harry Reid(retiring)-Democratic: 47+3 55.3%Independent: 2_ 100 seats 51 for majority Hillary Clinton wins the presidency, while Republicans keep control of Congress. It's possible Comey sends the letter after the election, therefore igniting a media firestorm and damaging Clinton's presidency. It's possible that, like Bill Clinton, Republicans would impeach Clinton at some point in her presidency(though they would almost certainly not have the votes to remove her from office, impeachment and conviction being different things). At the very least they would investigate her, Jason Chaffetz said they had 'two year's worth of material' on her even before the election. What would Hillary Clinton be able to do as President? Would she be able to pass immigration reform or infrastructure reform? How would she do as President? What would her relationship with the GOP Congress be like? How would Donald Trump react to losing to Hillary Clinton-would he concede? How would the Republicans handle the defeat, the third consecutive defeat in a presidential election-would Trump supporters blame the establishment(probably), would the establishment try to 'modernize' the GOP and support a candidate like Rubio or Paul Ryan for 2020(probably but it may not work), or would the GOP turn to a 'true conservative' in 2020 such as Ted Cruz(unlikely but possible)? I think the 2018 midterms would go very badly for the Democrats ITTL and the Republicans, with an unpopular President Clinton and a great Senate map, would likely gain a filibuster-proof majority. What would have been the effects of this outcome? How would US politics and the world be altered by a Clinton win? What would be the effects? What if? I think Clinton would still lose.
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pericles
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Post by pericles on May 19, 2017 7:46:47 GMT
What if on October 28, 2016, James Comey, the now former FBI Director, chose not to send a letter to Congress informing them of the reopening of the investigation into Hillary Clinton's emails? Comey's letter went against standard DOJ policy, which was not to comment on open investigations, especially before an election. Comey's conduct was seen as wrong, unpredented and reckless by many legal experts and they argued he should have not commented on the matter at least until after the election. Comey himself defended the decision saying that going through the door named 'conceal' would also have been catastrophic and the best option was to send the letter. However, the evidence shows that, despite many media denials of this(probably because if Comey cost Clinton the election, their coverage of the Comey letter could be said to have cost her the election), Comey cost Hillary Clinton the election. That's not to excuse Hillary Clinton's campaign or diminish Trump's, she made mistakes and was a flawed candidate and other factors played a role. But if Comey had not sent the letter, she likely would have been elected. The letter had a noticeable impact on the polls, and as Nate Silver said, that impact was not one of a downward trend over time but of the polls being shifted by a major news event, such as a vague letter that reopened the Clinton email investigation, with the words 'Clinton, email, FBI' being in voter's thoughts and wall-to-wall coverage of the letter, and without enough information it helped foster the impression Clinton was indeed crooked. This is proven by the majority of media coverage of Clinton in the final stretch, in contrast with previous weeks, being negative. On October 28, Clinton led Trump by 4.6%(http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_clinton-5491.html), on November 3, she led him by 1.3%. Clinton's favorability rating fell from -7% to -14% in a week, moving much closer to Trump's very low ratings and enabling him to pull off an upset. Undecided voters went to Trump, swinging Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania to him(without which he would have lost the election), all of which he won by less than 1% and perhaps swinging Florida too. While the investigation was closed just before the election, the letter misleading created the impression Clinton was corrupt, cost her early votes and there were many undecided voters, and the last thing they were hearing about was 'Clinton email FBI' and not Trump's flaws. Nate Silver also recognized that Comey cost Clinton the election(https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-comey-letter-probably-cost-clinton-the-election/). Most likely college-educated white voters who had voted for Romney but were undecided because of Trump(Trump did far worse with college-educated whites than any Republican in decades) 'came home' to Trump because of the letter and otherwise may have voted for Clinton. The question Silver asks is whether the Comey effect was a 'Little Comey' effect or a "Big Comey' effect. My results for no Comey letter are more towards a big Comey effect. 2016 US presidential election Hillary Clinton/Tim Kaine-Democratic: 307 EV 49.55% Donald Trump/Mike Pence-Republican: 231 EV 44.46%
2016 House elections
Paul Ryan-Republican: 237-10 47.6% Nancy Pelosi-Democratic: 198+10 49.5%
435 seats 218 for majority 2016 Senate elections
Mitch McConnell-Republican: 51+3 40.9% Harry Reid(retiring)-Democratic: 47+3 55.3%Independent: 2_ 100 seats 51 for majority Hillary Clinton wins the presidency, while Republicans keep control of Congress. It's possible Comey sends the letter after the election, therefore igniting a media firestorm and damaging Clinton's presidency. It's possible that, like Bill Clinton, Republicans would impeach Clinton at some point in her presidency(though they would almost certainly not have the votes to remove her from office, impeachment and conviction being different things). At the very least they would investigate her, Jason Chaffetz said they had 'two year's worth of material' on her even before the election. What would Hillary Clinton be able to do as President? Would she be able to pass immigration reform or infrastructure reform? How would she do as President? What would her relationship with the GOP Congress be like? How would Donald Trump react to losing to Hillary Clinton-would he concede? How would the Republicans handle the defeat, the third consecutive defeat in a presidential election-would Trump supporters blame the establishment(probably), would the establishment try to 'modernize' the GOP and support a candidate like Rubio or Paul Ryan for 2020(probably but it may not work), or would the GOP turn to a 'true conservative' in 2020 such as Ted Cruz(unlikely but possible)? I think the 2018 midterms would go very badly for the Democrats ITTL and the Republicans, with an unpopular President Clinton and a great Senate map, would likely gain a filibuster-proof majority. What would have been the effects of this outcome? How would US politics and the world be altered by a Clinton win? What would be the effects? What if? I think Clinton would still lose. Let's say Comey had a very minor effect, say 1% of the vote. If Trump got 0.5% less of the vote, and Clinton got 0.5% more of the vote, that would mean Trump loses all the states he won by less than 1%. Trump won Michigan by 0.22%, Pennsylvania by 0.72% and Wisconsin by 0.76%. So he would lose those three states and Clinton would keep her 'Blue Wall'. That alone would give Hillary Clinton 278 electoral votes, more than enough to win the presidency. Plus, Trump won Florida by 1.19%, so that too could flip. uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/, uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/evcalc.php.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2017 7:51:12 GMT
I think Clinton would still lose. Let's say Comey had a very minor effect, say 1% of the vote. If Trump got 0.5% less of the vote, and Clinton got 0.5% more of the vote, that would mean Trump loses all the states he won by less than 1%. Trump won Michigan by 0.22%, Pennsylvania by 0.72% and Wisconsin by 0.76%. So he would lose those three states and Clinton would keep her 'Blue Wall'. That alone would give Hillary Clinton 278 electoral votes, more than enough to win the presidency. Plus, Trump won Florida by 1.19%, so that too could flip. uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/, uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/evcalc.php. What about the E-mail scandal, does that not count for something.
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pericles
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Post by pericles on May 19, 2017 8:01:38 GMT
Let's say Comey had a very minor effect, say 1% of the vote. If Trump got 0.5% less of the vote, and Clinton got 0.5% more of the vote, that would mean Trump loses all the states he won by less than 1%. Trump won Michigan by 0.22%, Pennsylvania by 0.72% and Wisconsin by 0.76%. So he would lose those three states and Clinton would keep her 'Blue Wall'. That alone would give Hillary Clinton 278 electoral votes, more than enough to win the presidency. Plus, Trump won Florida by 1.19%, so that too could flip. uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/, uselectionatlas.org/TOOLS/evcalc.php. What about the E-mail scandal, does that not count for something. Yes-that Comey was decisive does not excuse Clinton's other mistakes. She should have appealed more to people's economic concerns and not done so much to make herself look untrustworthy. However it is clear that Comey hurt her, enough to cost her the election since it was very close. A big reason the letter hurt her was that wavering undecided voters who had been focused on Trump's flaws were reminded of her email scandal. Comey was related to her email scandal and a final extension of that, which while having no effect legally, had big political ramifications.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2017 8:05:23 GMT
What about the E-mail scandal, does that not count for something. Yes-that Comey was decisive does not excuse Clinton's other mistakes. She should have appealed more to people's economic concerns and not done so much to make herself look untrustworthy. However it is clear that Comey hurt her, enough to cost her the election since it was very close. A big reason the letter hurt her was that wavering undecided voters who had been focused on Trump's flaws were reminded of her email scandal. Comey was related to her email scandal and a final extension of that, which while having no effect legally, had big political ramifications. Still a Clinton wins means there is a democratic president and a Republican controlled house and Senate, will she be able to get things done ore do we see the Republicans trying to impeach here due the E-mail scandal which most likely will hunt here administration the moment she becomes president.
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pericles
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Post by pericles on May 19, 2017 8:08:08 GMT
Yes-that Comey was decisive does not excuse Clinton's other mistakes. She should have appealed more to people's economic concerns and not done so much to make herself look untrustworthy. However it is clear that Comey hurt her, enough to cost her the election since it was very close. A big reason the letter hurt her was that wavering undecided voters who had been focused on Trump's flaws were reminded of her email scandal. Comey was related to her email scandal and a final extension of that, which while having no effect legally, had big political ramifications. Still a Clinton wins means there is a democratic president and a Republican controlled house and Senate, will she be able to get things done ore do we see the Republicans trying to impeach here due the E-mail scandal which most likely will hunt here administration the moment she becomes president. That's what I was asking, on one hand she has more experience than Obama and will do more to foster congressional relationships, but ultimately Republican hatred of her was(and still is) very strong and Republicans will find it very hard to work with her and may end up impeaching her.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2017 8:10:14 GMT
Still a Clinton wins means there is a democratic president and a Republican controlled house and Senate, will she be able to get things done ore do we see the Republicans trying to impeach here due the E-mail scandal which most likely will hunt here administration the moment she becomes president. That's what I was asking, on one hand she has more experience than Obama and will do more to foster congressional relationships, but ultimately Republican hatred of her was(and still is) very strong and Republicans will find it very hard to work with her and may end up impeaching her. So we can come to the conclusion that Trump ore Clinton had in some way ore form, to much baggage with them and thus not perfect to run as president of the United States of america.
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pericles
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Post by pericles on May 19, 2017 8:13:07 GMT
That's what I was asking, on one hand she has more experience than Obama and will do more to foster congressional relationships, but ultimately Republican hatred of her was(and still is) very strong and Republicans will find it very hard to work with her and may end up impeaching her. So we can come to the conclusion that Trump ore Clinton had in some way ore form, to much baggage with them and thus not perfect to run as president of the United States of america. Probably but Republicans would have gone on an actual partisan witch-hunt against Clinton and she have been a good and competent President, far better than Trump.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2017 8:15:05 GMT
So we can come to the conclusion that Trump ore Clinton had in some way ore form, to much baggage with them and thus not perfect to run as president of the United States of america. Probably but Republicans would have gone on an actual partisan witch-hunt against Clinton and she have been a good and competent President, far better than Trump. Well she at least does not have the problem of having any supposedly contact with the Russians.
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doug181
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Post by doug181 on May 19, 2017 11:03:40 GMT
What about taking donations from Russians then okaying selling them uranium.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2017 11:13:39 GMT
What about taking donations from Russians then okaying selling them uranium. Who Clinton ore somebody else.
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mcnutt
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Post by mcnutt on May 19, 2017 20:52:02 GMT
I agree with Pericles. Hillary wins Wisconsin, Michigain, Pennslyvania and Florida and the Electoral Collage by 307 to 231. I also agree that Congress is still Republican. Since they don't have a veto proof majority the Republicans leave the Affordable Care Act alone. Trump does not accept defeat. He compalines, wihtout proof, as he did OTL, that millions of illeagal aliens voted. His hard core supporters don't accept Hillary as President.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2017 21:01:12 GMT
His hard core supporters don't accept Hillary as President. People like Steve Bannon i would guess.
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mcnutt
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Post by mcnutt on May 20, 2017 2:41:23 GMT
ITTL, if Hillary wins by 307 electoral votes, she does not brag about a landslide.
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