doug181
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Post by doug181 on Mar 23, 2017 18:40:03 GMT
Here's to the wee gentleman in the fur coat, the Jacobite toast
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2017 12:36:49 GMT
Well far, far better William of Orange [1688] than William the Foul [1066]. Wonder if William will still rule as long as he had in OTL ore shorter due the Williamite–Jacobite War in Ireland lasting longer. Could go either way. Since he seems to have lead his troops in person there's the danger of something going pear-shaped. Although a larger war might mean other generals come to the fore a bit earlier, most noticeably possibly John Churchill. I presume you got Doug's reference? Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2017 12:39:54 GMT
Wonder if William will still rule as long as he had in OTL ore shorter due the Williamite–Jacobite War in Ireland lasting longer. Could go either way. Since he seems to have lead his troops in person there's the danger of something going pear-shaped. Although a larger war might mean other generals come to the fore a bit earlier, most noticeably possibly John Churchill. Do not think we see a so huge butterfly effect take place in that William and Mary get a child, so except that the Williamite–Jacobite War might last a little bit longer, i still think that Anne will still become Queen of Great Britain.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2017 13:15:52 GMT
Could go either way. Since he seems to have lead his troops in person there's the danger of something going pear-shaped. Although a larger war might mean other generals come to the fore a bit earlier, most noticeably possibly John Churchill. Do not think we see a so huge butterfly effect take place in that William and Mary get a child, so except that the Williamite–Jacobite War might last a little bit longer, i still think that Anne will still become Queen of Great Britain. Well if they did produce an heir who survived and succeeded them then apart from anything else this likely means no Hanoverian dynasty in Britain. Which will have a massive impact on both nations and the interaction of Britain with Europe. Britain will still seek to prevent France or any other power getting too powerful but without a direct link with Hanover it will be markedly less important to the British monarchy. Also without especially the 1st two Hanoverian monarchs, who still looked heavily towards Hanover there is probably going to be less influence gained by Parliament in that period. Its still likely to be dominant and unlikely you will see the re-emergence of an autocratic monarchy in Britain but it could maintain some more power and influence longer.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2017 13:18:36 GMT
Do not think we see a so huge butterfly effect take place in that William and Mary get a child, so except that the Williamite–Jacobite War might last a little bit longer, i still think that Anne will still become Queen of Great Britain. Well if they did produce an heir who survived and succeeded them then apart from anything else this likely means no Hanoverian dynasty in Britain. Which will have a massive impact on both nations and the interaction of Britain with Europe. Britain will still seek to prevent France or any other power getting too powerful but without a direct link with Hanover it will be markedly less important to the British monarchy. Also without especially the 1st two Hanoverian monarchs, who still looked heavily towards Hanover there is probably going to be less influence gained by Parliament in that period. Its still likely to be dominant and unlikely you will see the re-emergence of an autocratic monarchy in Britain but it could maintain some more power and influence longer. So instead of Hanover/United Kingdom, we could see Netherlands/United Kingdom.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2017 13:50:59 GMT
Well if they did produce an heir who survived and succeeded them then apart from anything else this likely means no Hanoverian dynasty in Britain. Which will have a massive impact on both nations and the interaction of Britain with Europe. Britain will still seek to prevent France or any other power getting too powerful but without a direct link with Hanover it will be markedly less important to the British monarchy. Also without especially the 1st two Hanoverian monarchs, who still looked heavily towards Hanover there is probably going to be less influence gained by Parliament in that period. Its still likely to be dominant and unlikely you will see the re-emergence of an autocratic monarchy in Britain but it could maintain some more power and influence longer. So instead of Hanover/United Kingdom, we could see Netherlands/United Kingdom. Duh! True I forgot about that. Not sure how stable that union would be as the Netherlands is a lot larger and richer than Hanover, especially at this stage and has long had an active parliament and limitations on royal power. Could see a lot of tension on trading issues and also where the capital is. Neither London nor Amsterdam would be happy to play 2nd fiddle to the other I suspect, nor would the respective Parliaments. However if it worked then you could have a hell of a naval/colonial power. I suspect the union wouldn't last that long however as neither party would be that willing to concede primacy to the other. Not to mention questions on language, religion, etc. It was tough enough at times holding England and Scotland together but the Netherlands as well.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2017 13:53:26 GMT
So instead of Hanover/United Kingdom, we could see Netherlands/United Kingdom. Duh! True I forgot about that. Not sure how stable that union would be as the Netherlands is a lot larger and richer than Hanover, especially at this stage and has long had an active parliament and limitations on royal power. Could see a lot of tension on trading issues and also where the capital is. Neither London nor Amsterdam would be happy to play 2nd fiddle to the other I suspect, nor would the respective Parliaments. However if it worked then you could have a hell of a naval/colonial power. I suspect the union wouldn't last that long however as neither party would be that willing to concede primacy to the other. Not to mention questions on language, religion, etc. It was tough enough at times holding England and Scotland together but the Netherlands as well. The Netherlands is much closer to the United kingdom than Hanover so that is a plus, only problem is that the Netherlands is vulnerable to invasion by the French.
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doug181
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Post by doug181 on Mar 24, 2017 20:58:56 GMT
So Britain ends up with a Dutch instead of a German royal family
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 24, 2017 21:14:33 GMT
So Britain ends up with a Dutch instead of a German royal family Could happen.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 25, 2017 1:53:15 GMT
Duh! True I forgot about that. Not sure how stable that union would be as the Netherlands is a lot larger and richer than Hanover, especially at this stage and has long had an active parliament and limitations on royal power. Could see a lot of tension on trading issues and also where the capital is. Neither London nor Amsterdam would be happy to play 2nd fiddle to the other I suspect, nor would the respective Parliaments. However if it worked then you could have a hell of a naval/colonial power. I suspect the union wouldn't last that long however as neither party would be that willing to concede primacy to the other. Not to mention questions on language, religion, etc. It was tough enough at times holding England and Scotland together but the Netherlands as well. The Netherlands is much closer to the United kingdom than Hanover so that is a plus, only problem is that the Netherlands is vulnerable to invasion by the French. If you mean in distance, not by much. In culture, possibly but because both nations are long established and have clear national identities and interests its probably going to be more more difficult to prevent tension and disagreements. The Netherlands is exposed to French threat but so is Hanover. Its outside the HRE since 1648 but then the Austrians and other German states would be worried by any attempt by the French to control it. Also its larger and a lot richer even without its sizeable colonial empire. This both gives greater resources to defend it and makes it even more important for everybody else to keep it out of French hands. Basically the same reasons why an Anglo-Dutch union [probably only of crowns] would be difficult to hold together are reasons why it would be markedly stronger against a common threat. Also if Britain and the Netherlands settled their trading and colonial disputes that could save a lot of waste and hassle.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 25, 2017 1:55:43 GMT
So Britain ends up with a Dutch instead of a German royal family Could happen. Well England's had a couple of French originated dynasties, albeit the 1st very much against our wills, a Welsh one [Tudors], Scots [Stuarts], a brief spell of Dutch royalty and then a German dynasty for over a century so it might not make that much difference.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 25, 2017 9:04:58 GMT
Well England's had a couple of French originated dynasties, albeit the 1st very much against our wills, a Welsh one [Tudors], Scots [Stuarts], a brief spell of Dutch royalty and then a German dynasty for over a century so it might not make that much difference. So what does the current one fall under, true English.
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doug181
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Post by doug181 on Mar 25, 2017 12:36:38 GMT
Really German I think
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 25, 2017 15:09:00 GMT
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